BJU and What they Teach vs. What they Do

[Palmetto Boy]

I agree with the posters who argue that BJU should diversify the education of its divinity school faculty. BJ's views on separation have made the Bible department an anomaly in this regard.

If you look at the other departments you will see an impressive diversity of educational backgrounds. I only weigh in because this was an was an important factor to me in choosing a college, and I attended BJU. I didn't mind them being unaccredited, but I wanted to be sure I would get a good education. I was not disappointed.

Just as a sampling, some of my teachers were trained at Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago, Vanderbilt, Union Theological (!), UCLA, Oxford, UNC, The Sorbonne, Univ of Maryland, Emory, Berry College, and Virginia Tech. In other words, they come from top schools. I know of at least two faculty members who were Fulbright Scholars (or Rhodes Scholars, I always get those confused).

One irony about BJU is that despite the lack of diverse degrees in the Bible faculty, their grads have been well received in academia. They teach at big name seminaries like Dallas, Trinity Evangelical, Westminster, Gordon-Conwell, John Knox, Masters, and SBTS.

 

[Broadus]

Originally posted by Palmetto Boy:
I agree with the posters who argue that BJU should diversify the education of its divinity school faculty. BJ's views on separation have made the Bible department an anomaly in this regard.

If you look at the other departments you will see an impressive diversity of educational backgrounds. I only weigh in because this was an was an important factor to me in choosing a college, and I attended BJU. I didn't mind them being unaccredited, but I wanted to be sure I would get a good education. I was not disappointed.

Just as a sampling, some of my teachers were trained at Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago, Vanderbilt, Union Theological (!), UCLA, Oxford, UNC, The Sorbonne, Univ of Maryland, Emory, Berry College, and Virginia Tech. In other words, they come from top schools. I know of at least two faculty members who were Fulbright Scholars (or Rhodes Scholars, I always get those confused).

One irony about BJU is that despite the lack of diverse degrees in the Bible faculty, their grads have been well received in academia. They teach at big name seminaries like Dallas, Trinity Evangelical, Westminster, Gordon-Conwell, John Knox, Masters, and SBTS.

You are quite right about the diversity of graduate education in the other schools. I think the Bible faculty would be enhanced with the same diversity. That in no way means that the Bible faculty should not hold to BJ's doctrinal expectations. I am wondering because I simply do not know, how many seminaries such as the ones you mentioned have BJ PhD grads on their faculties? For instance, SBTS has a very good Hebrew prof on their faculty whose bachelor degree is from BJ, but his doctorate is from somewhere else.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[aefting]

I know that Dr. Robert L. Reymond at John Knox has a PhD from BJU.

Andy

 

[Palmetto Boy]

Originally posted by Broadus:
I am wondering because I simply do not know, how many seminaries such as the ones you mentioned have BJ PhD grads on their faculties? For instance, SBTS has a very good Hebrew prof on their faculty whose bachelor degree is from BJ, but his doctorate is from somewhere else.

Good Question, Bill. I don't know the answer, nor do I have the time to do the research right now, but I suspect that you are right. The majority of the BJ grads alluded to at other seminaries probably have terminal degrees from elsewhere.

I have come across a few faculty or commentary writers who went all the way through at BJ, but that is less common. (Some of the examples that readily come to mind have moved to the pastorate now.) In general, I would say that most people who go all the way to PhD at BJU stay ecclesiastically closer to home.

 

[Broadus]

PB,

Thanks. I assumed that but wasn't sure.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Pastor Larry]

I would say that most people who go all the way to PhD at BJU stay ecclesiastically closer to home.

Which is exactly my point about why they do what they do, whether it is right or wrong. There are very few places that can be trusted to turn out the kind of product that BJU wants. That, I think, is the issue to them. It does lead to a sort of theological inbreedin perhaps.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Harvey:
When I discovered through the internet, BJU was not in compliance with hourly wage laws, I humbly wrote HR. They never would answer my questions concerning it. I was only told to keep silent.

When my pastor approached my concern to the leadership, he too was told to keep it confidential.

I was told from HR to keep silent about the issue; two and half weeks later from that phone call at my desk, I received a letter stating my wife and I were being laid off. After 19 and almost 20 years of laboring there, my wife and children left BJU without a letter, without severance, without health insurance, and without the compassion we would have expected from such a fine institution.

By not reporting such violations of the law you are still in effect supporting such a practice.

Too many Christians sit under the guise of serving God by not reporting such activity. The same thing happened to a friend of mine who was the registrar at a major seminary. As believers we must be the best example to the world. I also believe we should expect of ourselves to pay our workers the highest possible wage. As a youngster the Christians I worked for believed in this and so did I as an employer.

A theological school's ministry to be an example is no different than any other employer in the world who is a believer. When some of those students leave they will have had before them an example of a school which cheats the workers and violates the law. The Bible calls that hypocrisy.

 

[Spoudazo]

Originally posted by Humblesmith:
I never attended BJU or had much contact with anyone who went there. But I did look at the faculty credentials. All of the faculty graduated from BJU. Which makes me instantly suspicious. No one with a degree from another school teaches there? If so, I didn't find any.

Inbreeding is never healthy.

No, Mazak has a PhD or something else (I forget) from a secular university. I think he got it before he was saved.

Also, I think Dr. Shumate got his doctorate from Harvard.

I honestly think that some people enjoy finding things wrong with any Christian institution. I have been at and around my whole life, and I'll probably be there (college/seminary) for at least 6 or 7 more years.

I just think that if you're just there to get an education, don't bother with politics, etc. you'll be fine.

There is another local church that is a great church, has a great college, highschool, etc. but I know first hand how rude and crude they can be when it comes to finances, paying teachers, etc.

 

[MargoWriter]

Thanks, Spoudazo.

And yeah, Shumate did I believe. He was a lawyer for a while as well. Very intelligent man.

 

[Harvey]

[/qb][/QUOTE]By not reporting such violations of the law you are still in effect supporting such a practice.[/QB][/QUOTE]

I can appreciate your comments and have been told by a few close friends the same thing.

My overriding concern and confusion was the message we preached in Chapel and the one we lived. I heard many Chapel sermons and of course, Sunday sermons on campus.

We heard sermons naturally on obedience to our authorities, to our employers and to the University. When the whole issue of the hourly law came up, and presented to the proper people there, there was simply a refusal to talk about it. One administrator did acknowlege to me it was probably true, but there was never an explanation beyond that as to why it should not be addressed right away and openly.

I would hear from my co-workers their frustration to chaperon off-the-clock, as well as other activities, knowing in myself legally they were not required to, and all the time waiting for the Administration to correct the problem.

It was never the money. I never wanted a dime for myself and I never got a dime from it. I just wanted to be able to reconcille what we taught our students with what we practiced.

I did all I could do in trying to be submissive to the leadership. I never saw a solution over the issue while I was there. I guess the Lord took care my struggling with that issue because of my wife and I being laid off.

I did talk twice to the legal authorities, and described the problem, but never the location of where I worked. In both cases, the University would be required to comply with the law. I had only to report them.

I even wrote the President, but he never wrote back.

Even though as you say I should have proceeded further on the issue, I haven't for several reasons.

1) I didn't want to hurt the cause of Christ, but to help it. Going to the authorities could have been a problem.

2) I didn't want the issue to come across like a money issue. It was only principal as I have shared.

3) Stephen Jones while he didn't talk about the issue, was a friend and was concerned for our well-being in the layoff. I was and am optimistic about his leadership. He one time apologized to me, calling me at home, over an issue, which truth was I wasn't really involved in. But it made a lasting impression and gave me hope for the school.

Finally, as this thread has verified with me, the issue really doesn't matter too much to people. Most of this thread is over the academic degrees of the professors and not over the initial concerns which started this post.

And that is fine. I take that as the Lord's leading to forget about the issue. I did what I thought was right before Him.

I won't trouble anyone with this issue anymore. Its been good to be here and review all the threads about BJU. I have learned a great deal.

There are wonderful people of God, both in and out of BJU. Many don't always look or dress like BJU, but I have found a lot of Christians who love the Lord and have warm hearts toward Him and His people.

Thank you all for bearing with my folly. Wish you all the best.

 

[Harvey]

One last note.

BJU has since made several changes concerning the issue I had addressed before my layoff. While I still feel there are some problems in their solution to the problem, (and that is for others to solve), I appreciate the headway they have made.

 

[Paul33]

Obedience would have been to report them to the authorities. Isn't that what you were taught?

We must obey the authorities.

Ah, but loyalty comes before obedience.

Harvey, if you don't think you were laid off over this issue you are really misled. Your concern was seen as disloyalty. Therefore, you must be terminated.

I hope I'm not offending. But that's how BJU operates.

 

[Palmetto Boy]

Originally posted by Paul33:
Harvey, if you don't think you were laid off over this issue you are really misled. Your concern was seen as disloyalty. Therefore, you must be terminated.

I hope I'm not offending. But that's how BJU operates.

Paul33, do you have firsthand knowledge of recent practices at BJU? When were you last at Bob Jones? Since as far as I know you have no basis for these sweeping characterizations, you are bordering on defamation.

I agree that from the information Harvey gives it sounds like he was wronged. I am fairly familiar with the situation he is referring to. I believe that one person is primarily responsible for the problems he identified, although his name has not come up in this discussion. Dr. Bob and others do not realize the shortcuts this manager takes and thus highly trust him. He has managed to control the information that gets to Dr. Bob and if there is an issue such as Harvey's Dr. Bob trusts the manager's word.

Thankfully he is finally being replaced by a man of high character. I had his replacement as a teacher, and I remember the high standards he urged on us. If he and his neighbor barter labor (such as law mowing for car work) my teacher would estimate the value of the exchange and report the "earnings" on his taxes. This is what tax law calls for, but I have never met someone else as careful.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Harvey, if you don't think you were laid off over this issue you are really misled.

And how do you know this? Did you talk to someone who told you this?

I hope I'm not offending.

The most offensive thing is that whenever a conversation about BJU comes up, you don't tell the truth, or comment on things that you don't know about. I have personally talked to you about this before. Unfortunately, you did not correct it then, as I recall. This type of attitude continues from you and it is unfortunate that you are letting personal bitterness get in the way.

BJU is certainly not a perfect place, but it deserves better than the nonsense that you too often spew.

There have been a lot of complaints here, all of them veiled to the point to where they are virtually unindentifiable. I know people who have been at BJU for close to a half a century and have never had a complaint about how the university has treated them or others. The fact that some people are disgruntled may say more about them than it does the school. In an institution or organization of any size, there will always be those who abuse power, and there will always be those who are malcontents. Don't let them sway your opinion.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Paul33:


Ah, but loyalty comes before obedience.

That is not in accordance with what scripture teaches. Our only absoolute obedience is to Christ.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Harvey:
Even though as you say I should have proceeded further on the issue, I haven't for several reasons.

1) I didn't want to hurt the cause of Christ, but to help it. Going to the authorities could have been a problem.

BJU must be warned they are the problem.

Are you not supporting the very thing you are criticizing? What gives any college or univeresity the right to break the law? I would send them a letter and give them a time table telling them if something is not done you will report it to the authoritites. By not doing so you are encouraging their lack of submission to authority.You have encouraged them to become gods to themselves.

BJU has no right to supersede the law with their own rules.

By warning them you may spare others from the shame of associating with an institution of such practice.

 

[Harvey]

Pastor Larry,

I appreciate what you have said in many respects. And I realize you in your current post are not specifically replying to me.

However, please do not discount the truth of what some people may say or post, because you call them disgruntled.

I can verify what I have shared. I have e-mails, copies, records, documentation and audio to prove my concern that I posted to the Adminisration. I have their replies and I have the backing of a fundamental baptist church pastor in Greenville. He didn't call me a disgrunted employee. He said was I was concerned about was a Biblical issue.

That pastor was the second person I went to and he would be able to verify everything I have said about the issue and he himself confronted the Administration about the issue.

I am Not a disgruntled employee. True I was deeply hurt over the way the layoff was handled as well as many people who are still at the University.

And I never said I knew for sure I was laid off because of that issue.

I was Not a disgruntled employee. That is a generalization unbecoming the Cause of Christ. To write someone off with that excuse is all to often a failure to look at the merits of the case and make appropriate changes.

I have gone out of my way the last few posts to be encouraging about the University. I realized I started out negative, and that was in part because I saw another post which reminded me how much I wished the University would be characterized by more transperancy and an acknowlegment of their mistakes. I was encouraged that others in and outside of the school shared the same burden.

I would be glad to let you examine my 3" spiral bound notebook with all the documentation so you could see my spirit was not of a disgruntled employee.

Indeed, I just heard recently from another graduate who has a friend on campus who is a staff member. This graduate told me that I was considered a "hero" for many because they now get paid {as the law stimulates} for chaperoning and such required activities.

It was never the money, but many people do work there who have had to accept many things that were not necessarly correct.

Before you suggest I am a disgruntled employee, get your facts straight. Check it out. Until just a few years ago, hourly employees were working off-the-clock with no choice in the matter, except the option of quiting, which for many is not a option because their children are at school there and for other reasons.

I enjoyed my ministry there. Not one employee who worked for me wanted to see me go. Read my parting gift with all their comments. As several employees told me, "you are the best boss I ever had." Even on the very last week of my employment there, I took the personal time to clean by hand the keyboard of the Provost. I wanted to make a difference.

I am Not a disgruntled employee, but one who honestly struggled with the issue and sought answers appropriately from the Administration. I have the emails both ways. The fact is the issue was never addressed to me and I was later let go. Only God knows for sure why and that's enough.

But don't write people off like this. Many people during the independence for our county were actually content with the status quo. It was a minority of people who really cared to make a difference. They paid for it in their lives and fortunes, but where would America be without people willing to do what they sought was right and in the best interests of everyone else. They dreamed of a better place to live.

Were they just disgruntled Englishman?

 

[Harvey]

Lest I appear inconsistent, there are some activities which appear to me to be required, but which are not yet paid. The word expected maybe used in place of required, but it is according to Dictionary.com the same thing. Hourly employees who are expected [required] to perform a task or attend a meeting, by law are to be paid for such work hours.

As far as writing the Administration, as Pastor Larry has insinuated, when one is labeled a disgruntled employee, that individual is not going to be able to write any letter and it make a difference.

I have recently learned if people are satisfied with their lives whether or not things are done properly on their behalf, I shouldn't get involved. It maybe selfish, but it only hurts yourself. I loved my co-workers and I showed it, but my concern about how they were treated in this issue certainly didn't help my standing with the University.

 

[Harvey]

This is what started it all {but not what started the reason this became an issue to begin with).

http://www.dol.gov/dol/allcfr/Title_29/Part_785/29CFR785.27.htm

http://www.dol.gov/dol/allcfr/Title_29/Part_785/29CFR785.28.htm

 

[Pastor Larry]

Harvey, I was not referring to you in any sense as being disgruntled. I might in fact know you. My point was specifically directed towards a person with a history of these kinds of comments in here, and towards the general complaints. I have no problem with legitimate issues, though some legitimate issues are silly ones. But again, not knowing specifics, no one here is qualified to comment on them (except you to whom this allegedly happened). I don't doubt your word. I don't need to see your notebooks.

But more than all of that, I question the usefulness of such discussion here. You complain that BJU didn't follow certain laws, so you take it upon yourself to come in here and gossip about it, with no one from the university to give their side, and you do it with a group of people who have absolutely no way to address the issue. Those actions on your part are questionable (at best). When you have a problem, you should talk to people who can address it, not to those who can't. And then you leave it there. Don't mistake me for defending BJU. But don't miss the point: You came in here, started what is essentially a rumor since no one can verify it. More importantly, you aired dirty laundry about someone unnamed (a boss whom the top brass doesn't know his actions) and you aired this dirty laundry to a group of people with nothing at stake who cannot do anything. Explain to me how that is not sinful gossip.