MargoWriter
New Member
Oh, boy . . .
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BJU and What they Teach vs. What they Do
- Thread starter Harvey
- Start date
Oh, boy . . .
Well, it all depends on what one considers gossip. I am glad the judge of our hearts is the Lord and not men. With no critical intent in saying this, I have found people away from the psyche of the University do tend be less critical and more forgiving of people's shortcomings.
I have a track record of trying to present the issue to those directly involved in the issue. I received a deaf ear. So I don't think from that standpoint you can say I have been a gossip. At least I don't feel I have been and I am the one who has to live with himself.
Well enough said. I respect yours and MargoWriters right to disagree. Its not gossip if you have the facts, the problem has always been a willingness to receive them.
By the way, if you really do know me, and I personally don't know any pastor in Michigan named Larry, feel free to email me directly. Perhaps you maybe a balm in Gilead for my sin sick soul. Maybe you were meant to help me bring closure to this issue. What do you think?
I have a track record of trying to present the issue to those directly involved in the issue. I received a deaf ear. So I don't think from that standpoint you can say I have been a gossip. At least I don't feel I have been and I am the one who has to live with himself.
Well enough said. I respect yours and MargoWriters right to disagree. Its not gossip if you have the facts, the problem has always been a willingness to receive them.
By the way, if you really do know me, and I personally don't know any pastor in Michigan named Larry, feel free to email me directly. Perhaps you maybe a balm in Gilead for my sin sick soul. Maybe you were meant to help me bring closure to this issue. What do you think?
Larry,
Are you so blind that you can't see that Harvey was "laid off" because he was a potential "whistle-blower?"
He has shared enough that anyone able to do a "connect the dot" puzzle can figure it out.
Larry, your attitude is part of the reason BJU can get away with what they do!
I find it funny that whenever anyone says anything even remotely negative concerning BJU, Pastor Larry is there to come to the rescue! If I didn't know better, I would think that you were Bob Jones, III.
Are you so blind that you can't see that Harvey was "laid off" because he was a potential "whistle-blower?"
He has shared enough that anyone able to do a "connect the dot" puzzle can figure it out.
Larry, your attitude is part of the reason BJU can get away with what they do!
I find it funny that whenever anyone says anything even remotely negative concerning BJU, Pastor Larry is there to come to the rescue! If I didn't know better, I would think that you were Bob Jones, III.
Gossip has nothign to do with facts, nor with how they were received. Gossip deals with talking to people about an issue in which they are not involved. I hurt for you in your situation, and I mean no unkindness whatsoever. But I really have a hard time with coming here and airing your dirty laundry to a group of people of whom all but probably two are completely unconnected from BJU, and all of whom have absolutely no power to change the situation. That, to me, seems like a clear case of gossip. I am glad you went to the proper people. But that is where it should have stopped, IMO.
I don't know if I know you. I might. If I could help you, I certainly would be glad to. I would be more than willing to talk and perhaps have a perspective that might help you ... or maybe not. Please don't take my concerns as anger or an attack on you. I know in times of hurt we want to talk and we will talk to anyone who will listen. I have been there, and looking back, I wish I had done it differently, not because I wasn't right, but because I handled it wrongly. Let me know if I can help you.
That has nothign to do with blindness. My bet is that you haven't talked to anyone at BJU about this. My bet is that the only thing you know is what you have gotten right here. I am not slamming Harvey about that. I believe he is probably telling the truth from his perspective. But there are two sides to every story, and we need to be objective.
So tell us, Paul, who have you talked to at BJU who has told you why Harvey was laid off? Or did you just make that up?
Wow, I didn't know I had that kind of power. I think you have way overestimated my influence.
You know better about everything you have said here. You have been personally hurt by BJU and you are now responding wrongly to them. I don't defend everything they do. First, I don't need to because I don't care. Second, I don't believe they do everything right. Third, no one is listening to me; I am not in a position to do anything about it. But when someone makes a false statement, I will respond. When someone doesn't tell what I know to be true, I will respond. When someone says something such as was said here that cannot be verified, that only gives one side of the story, I will respond with a caution.
Notice how I didn't defend BJU in this at all. In fact, I didn't even talk about BJU's action. That clearly shows your post to be wrong. Most of your posts on this board seem to be an attack on BJU. That says a lot ... to me anyway. You need to get past your issues with BJU and move on.
MargoWriter
New Member
quote:
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I find it funny that whenever anyone says anything even remotely negative concerning BJU, Pastor Larry is there to come to the rescue! If I didn't know better, I would think that you were Bob Jones, III.
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Dr. Bob Jones III does not have time to waste on message boards.
And for that very reason, I decided against printnig out this whole thread and bringing it to his attention. I don't want to burden him. He's already aware of people who hate him and are bitter toward the school.
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I find it funny that whenever anyone says anything even remotely negative concerning BJU, Pastor Larry is there to come to the rescue! If I didn't know better, I would think that you were Bob Jones, III.
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Dr. Bob Jones III does not have time to waste on message boards.
And for that very reason, I decided against printnig out this whole thread and bringing it to his attention. I don't want to burden him. He's already aware of people who hate him and are bitter toward the school.
Margo, while I understand Pastor Larry's remarks, this thread maybe of interest to Dr. Bob III. There is nothing here that is "hateful" towards his person. This is a difficult situation. And it might be reslved by someone coming through the side door.Originally posted by MargoWriter:
quote:
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I find it funny that whenever anyone says anything even remotely negative concerning BJU, Pastor Larry is there to come to the rescue! If I didn't know better, I would think that you were Bob Jones, III.
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Dr. Bob Jones III does not have time to waste on message boards.
MargoWriter
New Member
Squire,
Perhaps so. I actually did print out part of the thread a week ago and highlighted some things and made a few notes. I even started a letter . . .
But then I started to think I would just be wasting my time and his. I saw him not too long ago and thought of giving it to him--but his wife has recently had a skiing accident, and I would feel horrible burdening him with something else at this time.
Obviously all of this has still been in the back of my mind. Yet at the same time, I don't know that it would be wise on my part to be advocate for a few people who merely wanted to post their concerns with BJ and see if others would agree with them or not.
Sure, I'm here--but even I don't have time to spend trying to resolve all this.
Perhaps so. I actually did print out part of the thread a week ago and highlighted some things and made a few notes. I even started a letter . . .
But then I started to think I would just be wasting my time and his. I saw him not too long ago and thought of giving it to him--but his wife has recently had a skiing accident, and I would feel horrible burdening him with something else at this time.
Obviously all of this has still been in the back of my mind. Yet at the same time, I don't know that it would be wise on my part to be advocate for a few people who merely wanted to post their concerns with BJ and see if others would agree with them or not.
Sure, I'm here--but even I don't have time to spend trying to resolve all this.
Margo, the providence of God is good. So, I'd just have the print out in the files and when the fulness of time came (if it ever did) you'd be ready. You have a good point of about burdening him. But, it is the loneliness of command and Dr. Bob III is in a command position.
MargoWriter
New Member
Loneliness of command? Tell me about it. That's part of why I'd stopped posting on this thread for a while--couldn't take the loneliness.
I'll keep the "documents" on file.
What's my next assignment?
I'll keep the "documents" on file.
What's my next assignment?
"Loneliness of command" means as the commanding officer (senior pastor, college/university president, ect.), you eat alone many times because you cannot be "buddies" with those under your command and your peers are a loooong way away. I first experienced it when I served my ship's CO dinner in the Wardroom as wardroom steward. (Small ship, a 180ft USCG seagoing bouy tender.) The other officers would have eaten a their posts and he was the only one at the table.
MargoWriter
New Member
Squire, yes, I understand what you mean.
I look toward a day when I might have to deal with a related loneliness, since any public figure is open to the criticism of the world. A friend once said to me, "You cannot be a writer and be fainthearted." And yet the oddest thing about that, I think, is that you also cannot be a writer unless you are.
Part of the whole bundle--mutlifacetted, emotional, lonely people.
By the way, I'd love to hear some of your stories about working on a ship.
I look toward a day when I might have to deal with a related loneliness, since any public figure is open to the criticism of the world. A friend once said to me, "You cannot be a writer and be fainthearted." And yet the oddest thing about that, I think, is that you also cannot be a writer unless you are.
Part of the whole bundle--mutlifacetted, emotional, lonely people.
By the way, I'd love to hear some of your stories about working on a ship.
Alas the bells have again rung for the truth. How very sad that bj3 refuses to listen to his critics - including many on the faculty that recently did so as part of the process for accreditation.
Bottom line. BJU is run by one man, its president. The board does not and will not challenge the president -- they were all hand picked by the president of BJU. How dreadfully sad and disheartening. We continue to pray that BJU will change, and surely we know that God is able!
Still would send my son there, now.
Been over a year since I have read this my original post. Must admit, I realized over time I had some poor feelings to get over. Now the hurt isn't so much for what we experienced, but we are losing in my son not getting an education there we had planned on.
I guess I wanted, and it seems appropriate since this thread seems to have ended, to conclude it with a regret that I let it become more personal than I had intended.
I had to leave the forum and this post because I found my feelings were too strong at the time to continue.
Bob Jones Univesity has made mistakes and will do so again. We all have made mistakes. I look back and think I made a mistake in presenting the school in such a negative light. Well, I ask their forgiveness.
The truth is, my wife and I sorrow often because our son would be in college this very year if we were still on staff. Next year, he plans to go to a local college as its all we can afford and its so funny how being there at the school we never planned for him to go somewhere else.
In the end, Bob Jones Univesity is a good school to send your children. And I am encouraged that Stephen has discussed the rules in terms of a structure for the students and not a life-style to be lived once a person graduates.
Why would I send my son or daughter there now? Primarly because you have to look beyond the faults and look at the overall product. As long as there are people, like a church, your going to find problems and inconsistencies. I've had my own problems and lessons to learn, and I am thankful to have done some growing. Still plan to do some more.
Having gone to school there, worked there and left there, I can see its a good place for you son or daughter to mature and grow up under Christian teaching and love. You can feel pretty secure sending your child there and while you won't agree with some rules or some teachings, you can as a parent guide your child through those issues.
Well, the Lord has done great and mighty things for us since we have been laid-off. I share that to encourage anyone who may go through the same experience. He sometimes uses good people, who don't always handle things the right way, to accomplish the best in your life.
By the way, on Stephen's graduation I wrote him a brief apology for my overly critical spirit. He was very kind and responded himself personally. It speaks well of the future leadership. I know pray for him once a week. To stay humble and sensitive as a leader is hard to do when your always been "shot at" or having demands placed on you. Truly leadership can be lonely.
Best wishes everyone.
Been over a year since I have read this my original post. Must admit, I realized over time I had some poor feelings to get over. Now the hurt isn't so much for what we experienced, but we are losing in my son not getting an education there we had planned on.
I guess I wanted, and it seems appropriate since this thread seems to have ended, to conclude it with a regret that I let it become more personal than I had intended.
I had to leave the forum and this post because I found my feelings were too strong at the time to continue.
Bob Jones Univesity has made mistakes and will do so again. We all have made mistakes. I look back and think I made a mistake in presenting the school in such a negative light. Well, I ask their forgiveness.
The truth is, my wife and I sorrow often because our son would be in college this very year if we were still on staff. Next year, he plans to go to a local college as its all we can afford and its so funny how being there at the school we never planned for him to go somewhere else.
In the end, Bob Jones Univesity is a good school to send your children. And I am encouraged that Stephen has discussed the rules in terms of a structure for the students and not a life-style to be lived once a person graduates.
Why would I send my son or daughter there now? Primarly because you have to look beyond the faults and look at the overall product. As long as there are people, like a church, your going to find problems and inconsistencies. I've had my own problems and lessons to learn, and I am thankful to have done some growing. Still plan to do some more.
Having gone to school there, worked there and left there, I can see its a good place for you son or daughter to mature and grow up under Christian teaching and love. You can feel pretty secure sending your child there and while you won't agree with some rules or some teachings, you can as a parent guide your child through those issues.
Well, the Lord has done great and mighty things for us since we have been laid-off. I share that to encourage anyone who may go through the same experience. He sometimes uses good people, who don't always handle things the right way, to accomplish the best in your life.
By the way, on Stephen's graduation I wrote him a brief apology for my overly critical spirit. He was very kind and responded himself personally. It speaks well of the future leadership. I know pray for him once a week. To stay humble and sensitive as a leader is hard to do when your always been "shot at" or having demands placed on you. Truly leadership can be lonely.
Best wishes everyone.
paidagogos
Active Member
Interpretation of labor laws
There has a been a lot of gloss on this thread including personal opinions, uninformed opinions, etc. Even the federal and state departments of labor are divided and hazy on certain applications at times.
For example, suppose Mrs. A is a day care worker in the church's day care during the week for forty hours. If she works as a volunteer in the church nursery on Sunday, does the church have to pay her for her work and pay her overtime? According to the Fair Pay Overtime Regulations, some intepret that you do including labor attorneys and U. S. Department of Labor officials.
Also, I would not hire a person to work in my ministry who is not regular in church attendance. This is an expectation or requirement, if you please. Do I have to pay for church attendance? Go figure.
I do observe that some of the posters who have offered dogmatic opinions appear ignorant of the interpretation of labor laws and contested issues. I am fairly certain that BJU has consulted and acted on the advice of attorneys.
I do follow my attorney's advice too--after all, that is the reason for paying him although I exercise good common sense, moral uprightness and ethical judgment.
There has a been a lot of gloss on this thread including personal opinions, uninformed opinions, etc. Even the federal and state departments of labor are divided and hazy on certain applications at times.
For example, suppose Mrs. A is a day care worker in the church's day care during the week for forty hours. If she works as a volunteer in the church nursery on Sunday, does the church have to pay her for her work and pay her overtime? According to the Fair Pay Overtime Regulations, some intepret that you do including labor attorneys and U. S. Department of Labor officials.
Also, I would not hire a person to work in my ministry who is not regular in church attendance. This is an expectation or requirement, if you please. Do I have to pay for church attendance? Go figure.
I do observe that some of the posters who have offered dogmatic opinions appear ignorant of the interpretation of labor laws and contested issues. I am fairly certain that BJU has consulted and acted on the advice of attorneys.
I do follow my attorney's advice too--after all, that is the reason for paying him although I exercise good common sense, moral uprightness and ethical judgment.
Last edited by a moderator:
paidagogos
Active Member
Well said
Harvey, thank you for showing good courage in your last post. I admire a man who can say that he has changed his views. Well said.
Harvey, thank you for showing good courage in your last post. I admire a man who can say that he has changed his views. Well said.
Just wanted to weigh in with one point, it regards the faculty issues that were raised.
When you are looking to teach truth you don't look for diversity, you look for those who are best able to teach that truth.
I have a friend who goes to a liberal Bible school and they do not allow text books or research older than 50 years. Anything written before 1950 is not allowed.
They want diversity and they get trouble.
I am glad BJ knows what it believes, hires people that believe the same thing and then stick with it.
Just my $.02
When you are looking to teach truth you don't look for diversity, you look for those who are best able to teach that truth.
I have a friend who goes to a liberal Bible school and they do not allow text books or research older than 50 years. Anything written before 1950 is not allowed.
They want diversity and they get trouble.
I am glad BJ knows what it believes, hires people that believe the same thing and then stick with it.
Just my $.02
mnw said:
I would go one step further in hiring professors. I would want those who have personally discipled others. Ther are plenty who know the Bible intellectually who have not a clue how to work it out in daily living and discipling others. Seminaries are for those who can lead others to lead not just give out intellectual knowledge.