BJU Prof Randy Jaeggli's book on alcohol

[rlvaughn]

I see the messengers agreeing to some things, and URGING other to do the same.

Is there anything actually binding on the books?

The nature of a resolution is that it gives the opinion of the messengers and is not binding. I think you'd have to look at rules set by trustees or something like that to find something that is actually binding.

ADDED: See Jerome above for an example of how it can be implemented.

 

[Jerome]

to force that position on everyone is what I am concerned about.

I am a Calvinist SBC.

Southern Baptist Evangelists Denominational Endorsement Application:

www.sbcevangelist.org/downloads/Application.pdf

"...I have never been terminated from a job for immoral conduct. • I do not currently drink alcoholic beverages, use illegal drugs, or abuse prescription drugs. • I do not use nor condone profanity. • I do not practice fornication, adultery, homosexuality, nor any kind of illicit or immoral sexual activity. • I am not a pedophile..."

 

[Rob_BW]

Here's how one SBC entity implemented this directive from the Convention:

2017 Code of Conduct for North American Mission Board church planters

www.namb.net/NAMB_CodeofConduct2017.pdf

"...member of record and in good standing in a Southern Baptist or Canadian National Baptist Church. I will abstain from the consumption of any alcoholic beverage or illegal drugs. I will not view pornography..."

I have no issue with any of that. A congregation or entity restricting pastors, elders, teachers, missionaries, etc.

It's just restricting basic church membership based on alcohol use (not blatant drunkiness) that seems wrong to me.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am reading his book and hearing his argument for total abstinence. JOJ will be jumping for joy to read this and believe me I will read him carefully. Has anyone read the book and what do you think? How does he make better arguments than Gentry? I will also be reading "Drinking with Calvin and Luther" by Jim West as well to get a better perspective on the history of alcohol in the church throughout the centuries. I have only read the introduction and Randy has cited much good evidence to the argument of alcohol abuse and to that we can agree that alcohol can be abused. He also says on a page that drinks that the Bible calls strong drink or beer had a ethanol as low as 0.5%. This is a little lower than the Mike's hard lemonade light beverage. Is this true or false?

Don't think there is a biblical prohibition on alcolhol, as the Jews enjoyed wine, and Jesus did give out best wine in wedding... Just prohibited from drinking to excess, to be controlled by it, or also not to partake if it offends another Christian, or tempts them to fall back into it!

 

[Jerome]

that seems wrong to me.

If you don't agree with your church's covenant, you can just ignore, reinterpret, or 'spin' it, according to 9Marks:

https://www.9marks.org/answer/how-s...ovenant-or-church-constitution-you-inherit-n/

That's what my 'Reformed Baptist' pastor did. We had a no-beverage-alcohol covenant, but he was assuring new members that the church wouldn't intervene unless they got arrested for drunk driving.

 

[Rob_BW]

If you don't agree with your church's covenant, you can just ignore, reinterpret, or 'spin' it, according to 9Marks:

https://www.9marks.org/answer/how-s...ovenant-or-church-constitution-you-inherit-n/

That's what my 'Reformed Baptist' pastor did. We had a no-beverage-alcohol covenant, but he was assuring new members that the church wouldn't intervene unless they got arrested for drunk driving.

So what are the biblically valid reasons for denying church membership?

I can see sexual immorality, unrepentant sins, and drunkenness in scripture. And doctrinal issues, such as denying the trinity or denying believers baptism. But I don't see the doctrine of teetotalism in the Bible.

I just don't see where I have any authority to deny membership to someone based off of something that isn't by itself a sin. Though again, plenty of gray area for regulating its use which I don't deny.

 

[TCassidy]

I just don't see where I have any authority to deny membership to someone based off of something that isn't by itself a sin.

If you mean on your own, I would agree. But I believe the church has the ability to covenant together and establish certain standards of conduct that all agree to and that all those applying for membership must agree to.

And the Lord has established that as being biblical. That is what Jesus meant when talking about establishing His church and that "whatsoever you bind will be bound in heaven and whatsoever you loose shall be loosed in heaven."

If a church agrees in the establishment of a membership standard the Lord honors that agreement.

If a church covenant restricts something a member disagrees with the member has two choices. Get the church to change the covenant, or find another church. Violating the covenant is NOT an option.

 

[Rob_BW]

If you mean on your own, I would agree. But I believe the church has the ability to covenant together and establish certain standards of conduct that all agree to and that all those applying for membership must agree to.

And the Lord has established that as being biblical. That is what Jesus meant when talking about establishing His church and that "whatsoever you bind will be bound in heaven and whatsoever you loose shall be loosed in heaven."

If a church agrees in the establishment of a membership standard the Lord honors that agreement.

If a church covenant restricts something a member disagrees with the member has two choices. Get the church to change the covenant, or find another church. Violating the covenant is NOT an option.

Thanks, I'll do some studying on that passage, hopefully soon but time permitting.

 

[Yeshua1]

So what are the biblically valid reasons for denying church membership?

I can see sexual immorality, unrepentant sins, and drunkenness in scripture. And doctrinal issues, such as denying the trinity or denying believers baptism. But I don't see the doctrine of teetotalism in the Bible.

I just don't see where I have any authority to deny membership to someone based off of something that isn't by itself a sin. Though again, plenty of gray area for regulating its use which I don't deny.

That would NOT be an area where one would be denied membership in my church, as the pastor himself supports choosing none or some are both valid options!

 

[evangelist6589]

That would NOT be an area where one would be denied membership in my church, as the pastor himself supports choosing none or some are both valid options!

Not every church thinks the same.

 

[Yeshua1]

Not every church thinks the same.

True, and each local church would have the leeway to decide this issue, its just that thescriptures are not black and white forbidding it!