Blind guide to Moderate and Liberal

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Mat 5:11 (Ed's paraphrase 2005):

Blessed are ye, when men shall label you,
and persecute you, and shal say all manner of euill
against you falsly for my sake. [/b]

I noticed that the sentence didn't end with "label you". It ends with "falsely for my sake.". Labeling isn't a sin, it is just identifying footwear size...and if the shoe fits...

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you,...hypocrites!
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you,...hypocrites! ...ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you,...hypocrites!
Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides,
Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind:
Mat 23:18 ...he is guilty.
Mat 23:19 Ye fools and blind:...
Mat 23:23 ...hypocrites!
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides,
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you,...hypocrites!
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee,...
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you,...hypocrites!
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you,...hypocrites!
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers,...
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes:
Mat 3:7 ... O generation of vipers,
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers,...
Luk 3:7 ...O generation of vipers,

Name calling isn't the problem. It is misapplying the name. If I am inaccurate in labeling then convince me and I will say as Saul did in I Sam 26:21 "...I have played the fool, and have erred exceedingly."

Pro 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Conservatives and liberals believe they are right in their own eyes. This does not preclude their being a fool. The difference is whether they will hearken to counsel or not.

I am not interested in labeling for the sake of labeling but, I am interested in truth in advertising. I will not label someone as a wise Christian or even as a Christian at all, just because they say they are a Christian. Jesus gave practical illustrations of what He meant when He labeled people. "You are a hypocrite or viper or blind because you..." What we need is not merely to have generic words like conservative/liberal that we can then imbue with whatever definition we want but have a definition with practical illustrations so that we can at least know what we are talking about.

Come on, Ed, give us a definition. We already know the labels. I'll help get you started...

The definition of a liberal is one who...

The definition of a conservative is one who...

The trick is that the definition must be one that both sides accept so that there can then be discussion.

 

[yeshua4me2]

that's a good one ed.

and Jesus was right(correct), that the best way to describe his views.

thankyou and God Bless

 

[massdak]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Jesus was a feminist.
Feminists are liberals.

sounds like a different jesus to me that you believe in, surly not the biblical Jesus.

you like to hear preaching of all sorts dont you?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
Come on, Ed, give us a definition. We already know the labels. I'll help get you started...

IMG]http://www.setel.com/~jgflint/Clever.gif[/IMG]The definition of a liberal is one who...

The definition of a conservative is one who...

The trick is that the definition must be one that both sides accept so that there can then be discussion.

Cute trick. Except for a couple of matters:

1. In the real word there are not "both side" implying
two and only two sides. This is the BLACK & WHITE error so
common among those who cannot cope with thier environment
and those who mislabel others AND TAKE PRIDE IN DOING IT.

2. The topic of this Thread is "Moderate and Liberal",
so if i was going to offer definitions, i'd define
'moderate' and 'liberal'.

Originally posted by massdak:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Jesus was a feminist.
Feminists are liberals.

sounds like a different jesus to me that you believe in, surly not the biblical Jesus.

you like to hear preaching of all sorts dont you? </font>[/QUOTE]You need to catch this again.
I beleive 'Jesus was a feminist'.
This was said tongue in cheek: 'Feminists are liberals'.

In fact 'feminist' is only one point of many
which make up a liberal. But just because i'm
a fundamentalist who also happens to be
a feminist, i will be maligned by others who
claim to be fundamentalist but who are in
fact bigots. Such pseudo-fundies will declare
about a dozen features of liberals (and yes,
some liberals have all those features).

If, according to these BLACK & WHITE pseud-fundies,
if you have one attribute (like feminist)
then you have them all. In this example
because i am a feminist i am a Liberal
and because i am a Liberal i am in favor
of abortion for all causes and support
gay rights. Sorry, folks, i ain't going to
let you get away with it

I'm your worse nightmare come true
I'm a literate Fundie who has discoverd
God's rainbow.

"Surly' means 'of a bad temper'.
Perchance you meant: 'surely' - with confidence,
without a doubt?

If one knew what 'Jesus' taught and
what 'feminist' means, then one would
see the truth i said:
Jesus is a feminist.

[ July 31, 2005, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
If one knew what 'Jesus' taught and
what 'feminist' means, then one would
see the truth i said:
Jesus is a feminist.

This is my point, Ed, nobody will define "feminist" so that I can compare it with what Jesus taught.

Some people who call themselves feminist, don't mean much more that the idea that women should be eually paid for equal work. I have always agreed with that. Does that make me a feminist? Some people who claim to be feminists DO advocate gay lifestyles, abortion, the superiority of women, and other pointedly man hating ideas. I have always disagreed with these. Does that make me an anti-feminist. I will work with whatever definition someone wants to use but I can't say I am for or against feminism until someone defines it.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Artimaeus: "Some people who call themselves feminist, don't mean much more that the idea that women should be eually paid for equal work. I have always agreed with that. Does that make me a feminist?"

IMHO, yes, that makes you a feminist.

Artimaeus: " Some people who claim to be feminists DO advocate gay lifestyles, abortion, the superiority of women, and other pointedly man hating ideas. I have always disagreed with these. Does that make me an anti-feminist."

IMHO, no, that does not make you an anti-feminist.

My complaint is with people, not Artimaeus, who note one is
a feminist by the first defintion and without thought
or concern make one also a member of the second definition
to be despised and rejected.

Artimaeus: " I will work with whatever definition someone wants to use but I can't say I am for or against feminism until someone defines it."

You are an adult now, you can use your own definition.

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
You are an adult now, you can use your own definition.

I'm not so sure about the first part of that statement...my wife says there is little hope.

As to the second part, that would make communication virtually impossible.

My dictionary defines feminism as:

The doctrine advocating extention of the activities of women in social and political life.

Therefore, I am NOT a feminist. Therefore, Jesus was not a feminist.

I am not trying to hijack the thread but merely using this one example to illustrate how that unless we have a common definition there cannot be a valid discussion of conservative, liberal, moderate, fundamental, ultra/hyper, etc.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
...
I am not trying to hijack the thread but merely using this one example to illustrate how that unless we have a common definition there cannot be a valid discussion of conservative, liberal, moderate, fundamental, ultra/hyper, etc.

Not to worry, you have not hijacked the thread.
You seem to be one of the few that is actually
discussing the matter.

In fact, we have no common definition of these
terms. This makes it all the more onus when
somebody slaps a label on somebody else
that the somebody else doesn't like

 

[Ed Edwards]

My dictionary says:
FEMINISM - 1. the doctrine advocating social and political rights for
womeh equal to those of men.
2. (sometimes cap.) an organized movement for
the attainment of such rights for women.

Artimaeus: "Name calling isn't the problem.
It is misapplying the name."

Amen, Brother Artimaeus -- Preach it!

 

[Gold Dragon]

Liberal and conservative are two opposite directions away from an arbitrary moderate position when one chooses to categorize ideological views along a linear spectrum.

 

[Paul of Eugene]

But what about a guy who wants to both balance the budget and bring about better equality between men and women in the workplace? What about a guy who wants to see the US embrace and choose to obey moral standards in - prisoner questioning? What about a guy who wants to see all salaried employees earning a living wage at a minimum? What about a guy who wants to see teachers allowed to teach in classrooms of less than 20 kids? What about a guy who wants to see limited health coverage for all, not full health coverage for all?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Paul of Eugene: //But what about a guy who wants to both balance the budget and bring about better equality between men and women in the workplace? What about a guy who wants to see the US embrace and choose to obey moral standards in - prisoner questioning? What about a guy who wants to see all salaried employees earning a living wage at a minimum? What about a guy who wants to see teachers allowed to teach in classrooms of less than 20 kids? What about a guy who wants to see limited health coverage for all, not full health coverage for all?//

[sarcasm] The question is one. All these things go together.
If one does 1, then one does all.
If you believe in a balance of the budget and bring about better equality between men and women in the workplace; then you
have to want to quit beating prisoners, you want to see all
salaries living wages, teachers in less than 20 students, and
want limited (not full) insurance coverage for all.
There is no other way.[/sarcasm]

The only problem is what 'nametag'
(AKA: label) to give to this one-sided set of markers.

 

[massdak]

what about all the love and peace in the world. with perfect fairness and perfect regulation?
it just is not possible for government to do all the social justice that we all want. reagan used to say that the heavy hand of government will hurt you, i believe he is right. but Christians are not given the example to change government but they are given the duty to give the gospel and tend to biblical examples. but it is always biblical to speak out against lifestyles that want to be accepted as God honoring. that is where ed is in total fault and liberalism is never going to be acceptable. and modereates are only liberals that are just not as far gone.

 

[OCC]

massdak, I don't think Ed is at fault there. I don't think he believes it is wrong to speak against lifestyles that do not honour God.

"and modereates are only liberals that are just not as far gone." Tonight was a pretty sad night here...thanks for the

God bless ya though.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by King James:
... I don't think Ed is at fault there. I don't think he believes it is wrong to speak against lifestyles that do not honour God.
...

Thank you Brother King James.
I speak against lifestyles that do no honour
God. I speak against those who take to the streets
and insult thier own church (not honouring
God) while recuiting conservatives to
moderatism (not honoring God)
and recuiting moderates to liberalism (not honoring God).

BTW, i taught my first Sunday School class in 1956 when
Bro. Massdak was still in diapers.

In 1986 I was arguing on the proto-internet that
homosexual crimes should be punished with capital
punishement, especially the second offense. But because
i found out that helps nobody (even most conservatives
find it repulsive) - then i don't do it now and i'm damned
as a liberal? I'm not accepting that. I'm anti-homosexual
and therefore a conservative backer of the current
Pres. Bush.

 

[OCC]

Ed...no problem. I do hope though, that you are anti-homosexuaLITY and not anti-homosexual. God bless.

 

[Artimaeus]

Ed, I think your point is valid about lumping someone into a category just because ONE of their beliefs or ideas fit the category. I think of myself as a fundamentalist because I believe in the traditional fundamentals of the faith. I grew up in a church which was somewhat legalistic. However, that being said I am probably more like 80% Fundamentalist, 5% moderate, 5% conservative and 5% ultra-fundamentalist, and the other 5% various combinations and permutations (maybe even a speck of liberalistic thought on a rare occassion).