Blind leading the Blind

[Yeshua1]

Even though the Scriptures themselves speak of "tradition"? Before the Scriptures came about and were written that's all the early Christians were doing - was following the traditions that were being established.

Whether it was the new tradition of worshipping on Sunday, or the way in which worship was conducted, the tradition was established and then written down for future generations of Christians.

Were traditions ended after the first 300 years, or were there other traditions of the Christian Church that evolved? Isn't meeting on Wednesdays nothing but a tradition that was established in non-orthodox circles? Isn't the "altar call" just another tradition? Reciting the "Sinners Prayer" during conversion times perhaps? Couldn't those also be considered "lesser, inferior/opinions of religion" as you describe ours?

Doctrines came from scriptures, from the divine revelation of God, not traditions of men!

 

[Yeshua1]

How can someone who rejected/doesn't believe Jesus as the Messiah be saved (Jew or not)?

They can't!

 

[Yeshua1]

So they weren't "saved" before Jesus came along? My understanding of the OT Jewish process of salvation is that they could indeed be deemed acceptable (saved) to God by the precepts of the Old Law. Perhaps at some point the whole idea in God's mind was that OT Jewish way of salvation was much too difficult for everyone to follow, hence the perfect sacrifice once and for all, His only son, so that the rest of humanity could come to be made acceptable in the eyes of the Creator.

This whole thing of God and salvation has been bandied about forever in the minds of men. The whole Jesus narrative was indeed something very new, this idea of His sacrifice, a perfect love unto physical death, a love so perfect even to the point of loving one's enemies. A bar so high that it could be seen as incomprehensible, but man continues to try - thanks to the example of Christ and others who have followed him to the letter.

Which then brings us back to the starting point of this debate, those people that do not claim Christ yet their very lives are indeed Christlike. What happens to them? Is it the fires of hell or eternal life with God. Is it following the example or merely pronouncing the words the one considers himself a Christian and worshipping God in that manner?

None have ever been saved by keeping the law, by doing enough good works and penance, but be trusting in God to save them, as the OT believers trusteed and believed that God would send the Messiah!

 

[Adonia]

How can someone who rejected/doesn't believe Jesus as the Messiah be saved (Jew or not)?

The doctrines and practices of the early Christians would have been far more akin to Baptists than Catholic!

Oh sure, they even had an "altar call" and Wednesday night meetings too, right? You cannot change history my friend, the man who started the Baptist Church was John Smythe.

 

[Kelso]

Why would a RC post on a Baptist board? One would call that trolling,no?

 

[Mikey]

Oh sure, they even had an "altar call" and Wednesday night meetings too, right? You cannot change history my friend, the man who started the Baptist Church was John Smythe.

don't see how that answers my question. John Smythe or the founding of Baptist churches has nothing to do with this discussion.

one must have faith in Jesus to be saved. How can you disagree with this?

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Why would a RC post on a Baptist board? One would call that trolling,no?

No. They are here by invitation. This is the "Other Christian Denominations" forum, under "Christian Debate Forums (All Christians)."

Merry Christmas!

 

[Adonia]

don't see how that answers my question. John Smythe or the founding of Baptist churches has nothing to do with this discussion.

one must have faith in Jesus to be saved. How can you disagree with this?

Is it just having faith or is it living one's life according to His precepts? I have accepted His invitation for the forgiveness of my sins, but what about the person who didn't take the road to perdition as I did at one point in my life? Are all these other people destined for hell where the likes of a Hitler or a Stalin most likely now reside?

Can anyone say for sure what God will do to people who don't seek the saving grace of Jesus Christ? Can you absolutely say without error that God will show no mercy to them at the end of their lives?

 

[Adonia]

Why would a RC post on a Baptist board? One would call that trolling,no?

We are here for the free and open exchange of ideas and I thank the good folks here at BB for the opportunity to place my opinions before everyone.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Is it just having faith or is it living one's life according to His precepts? I have accepted His invitation for the forgiveness of my sins, but what about the person who didn't take the road to perdition as I did at one point in my life? Are all these other people destined for hell where the likes of a Hitler or a Stalin most likely now reside?

Can anyone say for sure what God will do to people who don't seek the saving grace of Jesus Christ? Can you absolutely say without error that God will show no mercy to them at the end of their lives?

According to These passages there is not a single person who has not taken the “road of perdition” as you call it:

Romans 3:10,23 KJV
[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Isaiah 53:6 KJV
[6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Your comparison to Hitler and Stalin shows you have a low view of sin. God hates a proud look, and lying lips. Pretty much most people out there are compulsive liars. You seem to think God only really hates mass murder. But he kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden for 1 sin...it was eating a fruit.

There is no such thing as a good person, because all have sinned. Thats the whole point of the cross. The bible
Does teach some in hell will suffer more than others. It does NOT however teach that those who do “less” sins will not go to hell.

Your theology makes a contradiction with Calvary. If people can be saved by works, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 2:21 KJV
[21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Keeping Gods law does not make ANYONE righteous in Gods eyes. I dont know why this is so hard for you to understand. You have been shown multiple times what the scriptures say and you continue to reject them to hold to your own ideas and traditions.

Mark 7:5-13 KJV
[5] Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? [6] He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. [7] Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. [8] For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. [9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. [10] For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: [11] But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free . [12] And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; [13] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[Mikey]

Is it just having faith or is it living one's life according to His precepts? I have accepted His invitation for the forgiveness of my sins, but what about the person who didn't take the road to perdition as I did at one point in my life? Are all these other people destined for hell where the likes of a Hitler or a Stalin most likely now reside?

Can anyone say for sure what God will do to people who don't seek the saving grace of Jesus Christ? Can you absolutely say without error that God will show no mercy to them at the end of their lives?

unless one has faith then they will not be forgiven. for it is only those in Christ that are forgiven because they are pardoned for what Christ has done. so no Christ, no salvation.

 

[Walter]

Why would a RC post on a Baptist board? One would call that trolling,no?

Are you aware this a forum for Christians of all denominations to express and discuss doctrine? So no, Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Orthodox, Mehodists, et al who post here are not trolling

 

[Adonia]

Your theology makes a contradiction with Calvary. If people can be saved by works, then Christ is dead in vain.

Contradiction with Calvary? Pleeese! The focus of our worship is Calvary. Period! End of story! I have been to Baptist worship and what did I get except one man standing at a pulpit and giving the assembled people his take on the Scriptures. What if you disagree? Well we know the answer to that - it's off to start a new church.

No, it is YOUR doctrine that has forgotten Calvary. When do you ever think of this at worship? Once a month? Once a year? And then your "communion" does not even use the elements proscribed in the Holy Scriptures which you should know is wine and unleavened bread. Grape juice and crackers are a poor substitute for the correct biblical directive.

 

[Adonia]

unless one has faith then they will not be forgiven. for it is only those in Christ that are forgiven because they are pardoned for what Christ has done. so no Christ, no salvation.

Do you claim to know what God will do at the appointed time to all those other people? Didn't He say somewhere that the first will be last and the last first? Don't be so smug to think that you know the level of what God's mercy to others might be - you just might be surprised at what might actually happen.

You could be standing there at the pearly gates and say to God "but why are you letting him in? I was a believer and claimed you as my Savior all my life, he didn't!". It just might be like the example in the Scriptures where the landowner hires a worker early for the agreed upon wage, then paid the same wage to the worker he hired at midday and the same wage to the worker he hired right before quitting time. All were in the end treated equally - do you doubt God has the power and right to do that?

 

[steaver]

Do you claim to know what God will do at the appointed time to all those other people? Didn't He say somewhere that the first will be last and the last first? Don't be so smug to think that you know the level of what God's mercy to others might be - you just might be surprised at what might actually happen.

The bishop in the OP sure claims to know. He told Ben he was A OK not believing as the Catholic believes. So where do you stand? With the RCC which claims they know who will be saved and who will not? Or will you continue to argue here that nobody really knows?

Why do you believe you are saved Adonia? Or don't you know for sure?

 

[Mikey]

Do you claim to know what God will do at the appointed time to all those other people? Didn't He say somewhere that the first will be last and the last first? Don't be so smug to think that you know the level of what God's mercy to others might be - you just might be surprised at what might actually happen.

You could be standing there at the pearly gates and say to God "but why are you letting him in? I was a believer and claimed you as my Savior all my life, he didn't!". It just might be like the example in the Scriptures where the landowner hires a worker early for the agreed upon wage, then paid the same wage to the worker he hired at midday and the same wage to the worker he hired right before quitting time. All were in the end treated equally - do you doubt God has the power and right to do that?

Scripture says Christ is the only way to the father. That faith is necessary for salvation.

it is foolish to say even though scripture, and Christ himself stated that He is the way to salvation, that He may change His mind at some point and have another way to salvation so lets ignore what He has told us about salvation because it may, maybe, possibly change.

We can only say what God has told us. And He has told us clearly that faith is needed.

 

[lewlew]

You and that other man, Mr. Gendron, have your own interpretation on the subject. I think the Bishop's reasoning was spot on, especially when he said the following: “John Henry Newman said that the conscience is the aboriginal vicar of Christ in the soul. It’s a very interesting characterization, that it is, in fact, the voice of Christ—if He’s the logos made flesh, He’s the divine mind or reason made flesh—that when I follow my conscience, I’m following Him, whether I know it explicitly or not,”

We have been over this before and to you the only person saved is the Evangelical Christian who interprets the Scriptures in a particular way in accordance with your particular doctrines. Let us all seek to emulate the Lord with love in all things and allow Him to make the final decision concerning salvation at the appropriate time.

Again my friend please answer the question with a yes or no - your personal opinion please. Are all Jews who ever lived condemned to hell?

Doesn't matter Jew or Gentile, Jesus came for all. If you be born of Jewish decent but believe on the Lord Jesus as your savior you are saved. Only through Jesus is anyone saved. If you believe not, you will not be saved. The bishop obviously is a false teacher if he is telling us that there is salvation by any other than Jesus. End of story.

 

[Yeshua1]

Oh sure, they even had an "altar call" and Wednesday night meetings too, right? You cannot change history my friend, the man who started the Baptist Church was John Smythe.

They would have been teaching the real Gospel according to paul, and not the false one according to Rome!

 

[Adonia]

They would have been teaching the real Gospel according to paul, and not the false one according to Rome!

'
Still lying about us I see. This will not serve you well on Judgement Day.

 

[Walter]

'
Still lying about us I see. This will not serve you well on Judgement Day.

Yeshua1 has a long history of 'hit and run' anti-Catholic postings on this board. He ignored my questions about the various Baptist doctrines such as Freewill Baptist rejection of Eternal Security as HERESY or the various Baptist churches that teach limited atonement vs. Unlimited atonement, etc because he knows it makes his claim that Baptists follow only the Holy Spirit in interpretation of the scripture. WHAT ABOUT American Baptists, Yeshua1? Some strange Baptistic beliefs being taught in those churches you said are following the leading of the Holy Spirit. Maybe Yeshua1 could specify just which Baptist churches are kosher.

The disciples were clearly told by our Lord Jesus at the Last Supper that the Holy Spirit would “teach you all things” (John 14:26) and “guide you into all truth” (John 16:13). So, Yeshua! should be able to tell us which it is. Are the Freewill Baptist heretics for teaching that a Christian can lose their salvation? How about the various Baptist churches teaching that limited atonement? Heretics? Is the Holy Spirit schizophrenic and leading various Baptist churches (all bible-believing according to him) to wildly differing theology? Just what, Yeshua1 should they 'hold to' as you so often state???