Blind leading the Blind

[Adonia]

Doesn't matter Jew or Gentile, Jesus came for all. If you be born of Jewish decent but believe on the Lord Jesus as your savior you are saved. Only through Jesus is anyone saved. If you believe not, you will not be saved. The bishop obviously is a false teacher if he is telling us that there is salvation by any other than Jesus. End of story.

The Jewish teenager Anne Frank was sixteen years old when she was killed at the Bergen-Belson concentration camp. So according to you it's no salvation for her, just direct to the fires of hell because she didn't claim Christ as her savior? Approximately1 million other Jewish children were killed, let's say in the age range of a few months to sixteen years as Anne Frank was, so no salvation for them either - it's direct to hell, to an eternity away from God who created them in the first place?

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

The Jewish teenager Anne Frank was sixteen years old when she was killed at the Bergen-Belson concentration camp. So according to you it's no salvation for her, just direct to the fires of hell because she didn't claim Christ as her savior? Approximately1 million other Jewish children were killed, let's say in the age range of a few months to sixteen years as Anne Frank was, so no salvation for them either - it's direct to hell, to an eternity away from God who created them in the first place?

Note the emotionally charged argument here made without any scripture.

Adonia, I have watched you post in this thread and I generally agree with your political views, but when it comes to theology, you argue just like a liberal.

THE BIBLE SAYS IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE ON CHRIST YOU ARE CONDEMNED ALREADY (JOHN 3:18)

How about you actually deal with what the bible says in John 3:18 instead of making all these distracting comments and refusing to actually interact with what the Bible says.

BTW, as as side bar, I do think certain children are under the mercy of God, as Baptist we call it the Age of accountability, and we base this on the fact that when David had a INFANT, that died, David said he would go to the child someday.
This however is a side bar and not meant to be discussed.

PLEASE ADDDRESS JOHN 3:18, Please explain to us why in Matthew 28-19-20, Mark 16:15, and in Acts 1:8 Jesus told his disciples to preach the Gosepl to every creature if they don't even need to believe in Jesus to be saved. Please explain to us why Paul made it a point to go and preach to the Jews first in every location he visited on his missionary journeys if they don't need the Gospel in order to be saved.

I find it sad that you have to basically ignore hundreds of verses from the New Testament to even suggest that people are saved without believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Read the Book of Acts, or the Gospel of John...or Romans.... COME ON.

READ THE WORD OF GOD AND OPEN YOUR EYES.

 

[Adonia]

BTW, as as side bar, I do think certain children are under the mercy of God, as Baptist we call it the Age of accountability, and we base this on the fact that when David had a INFANT, that died, David said he would go to the child someday.

An infant is different from a child who has reached the age of reason which is around 7 or 8. So according to you folks, all those innocent children of the holocaust between 7 and sixteen like Anne Frank are in hell with the people who killed them. I'm sorry, but I cannot believe that the loving and merciful God that we are told that exists would do such a thing.

PLEASE ADDDRESS JOHN 3:18, Please explain to us why in Matthew 28-19-20, Mark 16:15, and in Acts 1:8 Jesus told his disciples to preach the Gosepl to every creature if they don't even need to believe in Jesus to be saved. Please explain to us why Paul made it a point to go and preach to the Jews first in every location he visited on his missionary journeys if they don't need the Gospel in order to be saved.

Look, the whole thing is one great mystery that can only be believed by faith. I think it's the great example of Christ that the Scriptures seek to portray that people should be living their lives like. If one is doing that, then they are adhering to the Gospel whether they know it or not.

Remember, God wants no one to be lost and those that think they will be first will instead be last. Jesus knew the Jews would reject Him, but aren't they still God's chosen people? Do they not still have a covenant with the Him (God)?

Bishop Barron said: "They’re saved through the grace of Christ indirectly received,”. “So, I mean, the grace is coming from Christ, but it might be received according to your conscience—if you’re following your conscience sincerely, or in your case, you’re following the commandments of the Law sincerely.”

Such a thing might not make sense to you, but it does to me. "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world but to save the world through Him" - and that fact has bled over into every human on the planet. We both can quote the Scriptures all day long but the greatest thing that they are trying to teach us is love. I believe if a person has that in their heart they are certainly walking with Christ.

In the end God will judge all as we live the mystery of this life. Yes, I claim the title Christian and look to Christ for the forgiveness of my sins and I find great comfort in the here and now because of my faith and I can go on living fully because of it.

I personally know people who care not a whit about Christ, they do not acknowledge Him, they never go to worship, never open a Bible, but in my opinion they are more Christian than many of us who claim the title. I go by what I see and how people actually live and that says more about them than many who always read the Scriptures but do not act according to them.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

So according to you folks, all those innocent children

Except that there is no such that as innocent children, since all children disobey their parents and lie. Romans 3:23 all have sinned... Rom 3:1 There is none righteous, no not one...

but aren't they still God's chosen people? Do they not still have a covenant with the Him (God)?

Except for the fact that every single Jew has broken God's covenant with him and just because they are Jewish does not mean they are saved:

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

if you’re following your conscience sincerely, or in your case, you’re following the commandments of the Law sincerely.”

Except that NOBODY in the world has always followed their conscience or followed the commandments of the law. this seems to be the point that you don't get.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world but to save the world through Him"

Ok, so are you trying to say God does not condemn anyone? Is that your understanding of the verse? Well Mr. So let's go back to the example of the people who murdered the Jews, Do you believe they are in heaven or hell? You are now contradicting your own false theology.

I go by what I see and how people actually live

the way people actually live is corrupt, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has ever been born except for Jesus Christ is wicked sinner.

Look at this world. all the pain and suffering that you see in this world entered because of one man's sin. Yet men and women sin every single day. Even if a person only sins once per day, that amounts to 365 days in one year, and after 70 years that amount to around 25,550 sins.. and that is only if a person sins once per day.

But you think God is going to ignore all those sins but yet for some reason is going to condemn the Nazi murderers? What if the Nazi Murderers were "sincere" and thought they were doing the world a favor by getting rid of the Jews? after all wasn't that Hitler's position?

Wow is your theology full of contradictions with itself and the scriptures.

I am done with this conversation. You must repent of your false teachings and submit the teachings of the word of God. You must stop trusting in your own righteousness and if you want to enter the kingdom of God you must trust ONLY in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. At the root of this is pride, you still think somewhere deep down in your heart that you are a good person, and you go to great lengths to try and justify other sinners and make excuses for them because at the end of the day, you don't really think sin deserves to be punished. I would remind you that God kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden for eating a fruit, that he rained fire and brimstone out of heaven on Sodom and Ghomorrah, that he destroyed the whole earth with a flood, and that his own Son was crucified as payment for our sins. God is HOLY, and RIGHTEOUS. Read the Book of Revelation, the judgments described there are truly awful and they are all because of sin. HELL is a REAL PLACE where people go to be punished for SIN. Whether you want to admit it or not. Sin deserves Hell. Rebellion against a perfect, holy, righteous God deserves hell. THERE is only 1 way to be forgiven, and that is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, your sacraments are filthy rags, your baptism is a filthy rag, your good works, your "following your conscience" "trying to keep the law" all FILTHY RAGS. Isaiah 64:6 "ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES ARE AS FILTHY RAGS"

This is at the core of your proble: whether you want to admit it or not you think mankind's righteousness (which is filthy rags) somehow merit's him forgivness of sin and eternal life. You might not want to admit it, but that is exactly what you believe. You can play word games, and try to twist things however you want, but at the end of the day, you don't really believe Jesus died to pay for our sins. You believe it requires Jesus and our filthy rags.

REPENT.

 

[Yeshua1]

'
Still lying about us I see. This will not serve you well on Judgement Day.

The dogmas and doctrines of Rome are not found in the scriptures, as it denies Pauline Justification, so how I be telling lies if that is what Rome teaches? It denies the Reformation!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua1 has a long history of 'hit and run' anti-Catholic postings on this board. He ignored my questions about the various Baptist doctrines such as Freewill Baptist rejection of Eternal Security as HERESY or the various Baptist churches that teach limited atonement vs. Unlimited atonement, etc because he knows it makes his claim that Baptists follow only the Holy Spirit in interpretation of the scripture. WHAT ABOUT American Baptists, Yeshua1? Some strange Baptistic beliefs being taught in those churches you said are following the leading of the Holy Spirit. Maybe Yeshua1 could specify just which Baptist churches are kosher.

The disciples were clearly told by our Lord Jesus at the Last Supper that the Holy Spirit would “teach you all things” (John 14:26) and “guide you into all truth” (John 16:13). So, Yeshua! should be able to tell us which it is. Are the Freewill Baptist heretics for teaching that a Christian can lose their salvation? How about the various Baptist churches teaching that limited atonement? Heretics? Is the Holy Spirit schizophrenic and leading various Baptist churches (all bible-believing according to him) to wildly differing theology? Just what, Yeshua1 should they 'hold to' as you so often state???

Rome denies Pauline Justification , so why is that bashing Catholics, if that is what Rome believes itself?

 

[Yeshua1]

Except that there is no such that as innocent children, since all children disobey their parents and lie. Romans 3:23 all have sinned... Rom 3:1 There is none righteous, no not one...


Except for the fact that every single Jew has broken God's covenant with him and just because they are Jewish does not mean they are saved:

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?



Except that NOBODY in the world has always followed their conscience or followed the commandments of the law. this seems to be the point that you don't get.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.



Ok, so are you trying to say God does not condemn anyone? Is that your understanding of the verse? Well Mr. So let's go back to the example of the people who murdered the Jews, Do you believe they are in heaven or hell? You are now contradicting your own false theology.


the way people actually live is corrupt, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has ever been born except for Jesus Christ is wicked sinner.

Look at this world. all the pain and suffering that you see in this world entered because of one man's sin. Yet men and women sin every single day. Even if a person only sins once per day, that amounts to 365 days in one year, and after 70 years that amount to around 25,550 sins.. and that is only if a person sins once per day.

But you think God is going to ignore all those sins but yet for some reason is going to condemn the Nazi murderers? What if the Nazi Murderers were "sincere" and thought they were doing the world a favor by getting rid of the Jews? after all wasn't that Hitler's position?

Wow is your theology full of contradictions with itself and the scriptures.

I am done with this conversation. You must repent of your false teachings and submit the teachings of the word of God. You must stop trusting in your own righteousness and if you want to enter the kingdom of God you must trust ONLY in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. At the root of this is pride, you still think somewhere deep down in your heart that you are a good person, and you go to great lengths to try and justify other sinners and make excuses for them because at the end of the day, you don't really think sin deserves to be punished. I would remind you that God kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden for eating a fruit, that he rained fire and brimstone out of heaven on Sodom and Ghomorrah, that he destroyed the whole earth with a flood, and that his own Son was crucified as payment for our sins. God is HOLY, and RIGHTEOUS. Read the Book of Revelation, the judgments described there are truly awful and they are all because of sin. HELL is a REAL PLACE where people go to be punished for SIN. Whether you want to admit it or not. Sin deserves Hell. Rebellion against a perfect, holy, righteous God deserves hell. THERE is only 1 way to be forgiven, and that is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, your sacraments are filthy rags, your baptism is a filthy rag, your good works, your "following your conscience" "trying to keep the law" all FILTHY RAGS. Isaiah 64:6 "ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES ARE AS FILTHY RAGS"

This is at the core of your proble: whether you want to admit it or not you think mankind's righteousness (which is filthy rags) somehow merit's him forgivness of sin and eternal life. You might not want to admit it, but that is exactly what you believe. You can play word games, and try to twist things however you want, but at the end of the day, you don't really believe Jesus died to pay for our sins. You believe it requires Jesus and our filthy rags.

REPENT.

Since he sees me as needing to repent for my views, he must really like you too!

 

[Walter]

Rome denies Pauline Justification , so why is that bashing Catholics, if that is what Rome believes itself?

No, Rome does no such thing. But, aside from your constant mantra, why not answer my questions? Which Baptist church doctrines are received by the Holy Spirit? Some claim Eternal Security is HERESY (Freewheeling chaps), some teach Limited Atonement and others Unlimited Atonement. All say their doctrine/interpretation of scripture comes by way of the Holy Spirit. You say if I were to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit I would become a Baptist. Baptists seem to have some radically different doctrines. Some teach 'Easy Believism', American Baptists oftentime question what Catholics consider essential beliefs ie: Virgin Birth, Holy Trinity, bodily resurrection of Jesus, existence of Hell, etc.

 

[Adonia]

\

Ok, so are you trying to say God does not condemn anyone? Is that your understanding of the verse? Well Mr. So let's go back to the example of the people who murdered the Jews, Do you believe they are in heaven or hell? You are now contradicting your own false theology.

The people who murdered the Jews should be in hell, forever separated from God most high. You probably would say that they are "saved" and in heaven if they just professed Jesus as the Savior, am I right? That would indeed be rich, the Nazi killers in heaven and the old Jewish woman who never bothered anyone in her life, or the hundreds of thousands of Jewish teenagers burning in hell because they were Jews. You are the one with the theological contradictions, not me.

 

[Adonia]

This is at the core of your proble: whether you want to admit it or not you think mankind's righteousness (which is filthy rags) somehow merit's him forgivness of sin and eternal life. You might not want to admit it, but that is exactly what you believe. You can play word games, and try to twist things however you want, but at the end of the day, you don't really believe Jesus died to pay for our sins. You believe it requires Jesus and our filthy rags.

What? Your assessment is bonkers! You really have no answer for what I point out do you, except spouting the fundamentalist theological line. The Scriptures say it, I believe it, and there are no variations. Unfortunately for you, the real world is not like that, all neat and concise as you believe - no, the real world is not fundamentalist. All I can say is that thankfully you will not be judging anyone at the appointed time.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

\


The people who murdered the Jews should be in hell, forever separated from God most high. You probably would say that they are "saved" and in heaven if they just professed Jesus as the Savior, am I right? That would indeed be rich, the Nazi killers in heaven and the old Jewish woman who never bothered anyone in her life, or the hundreds of thousands of Jewish teenagers burning in hell because they were Jews. You are the one with the theological contradictions, not me.

You are still continuing to somehow think man’s filthy rags merit him eternal life.

There is no such thing as an old innocent Jewish woman. How many times do we have to go through this.

ALL HAVE SINNED and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23
The wages of sin is DEATH Romans 6:23
Hell and the lake of fire are the second death Revelation 20:14

Stop it with your rediculous argument about “innocent” Jews. There is no such thing as an innocent Jew besides Jesus Christ.

How about you actually deal with the tons of scriptures I have quoted instead of resorting over and over to emotionally charged arguments.

 

[steaver]

Do you claim to know what God will do at the appointed time to all those other people? Didn't He say somewhere that the first will be last and the last first? Don't be so smug to think that you know the level of what God's mercy to others might be - you just might be surprised at what might actually happen.

The bishop in the OP sure claims to know. He told Ben he was A OK not believing as the Catholic believes. So where do you stand? With the RCC which claims they know who will be saved and who will not? Or will you continue to argue here that nobody really knows?

Why do you believe you are saved Adonia? Or don't you know for sure?

 

[lewlew]

I thought this was a Baptist Blog, why are there Catholics in here?

 

[Logos1560]

I personally know people who care not a whit about Christ, they do not acknowledge Him, they never go to worship, never open a Bible, but in my opinion they are more Christian than many of us who claim the title.

Your subjective, personal opinions contradict Scripture.

 

[Mikey]

I thought this was a Baptist Blog, why are there Catholics in here?

As you can see this is in the sub forum for other denominations. To enable discussions with these denominations.

 

[Walter]

Rome denies Pauline Justification , so why is that bashing Catholics, if that is what Rome believes itself?

Are we saved by 'Faith Alone'?

 

[OfLivingWaters]

You and that other man, Mr. Gendron, have your own interpretation on the subject. I think the Bishop's reasoning was spot on, especially when he said the following: “John Henry Newman said that the conscience is the aboriginal vicar of Christ in the soul. It’s a very interesting characterization, that it is, in fact, the voice of Christ—if He’s the logos made flesh, He’s the divine mind or reason made flesh—that when I follow my conscience, I’m following Him, whether I know it explicitly or not,”

We have been over this before and to you the only person saved is the Evangelical Christian who interprets the Scriptures in a particular way in accordance with your particular doctrines. Let us all seek to emulate the Lord with love in all things and allow Him to make the final decision concerning salvation at the appropriate time.

Again my friend please answer the question with a yes or no - your personal opinion please. Are all Jews who ever lived condemned to hell?

That's NOT how that works.
2 Corinthians 10:5
5 We destroy arguments and every proud obstacle to the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,
One must first believe on Him. You put the cart before the horse

Again my friend please answer the question with a yes or no - your personal opinion please. Are all Jews who ever lived condemned to hell?[/QUOTE]

I will answer the question. If they rejected Christ, YES! They are not contenders because every opportunity has been given to them to receive the Author of life and they have chosen death. They are not some obscure aboriginal tribe who has not heard the good news. They have heard the good news and reject it! ANY QUESTIONS!

 

[OfLivingWaters]

The Jew who receives Christ is a TRUE JEW INDEED.NO COMPROMISE!
Numbers 23
[URL='https://biblehub.com/numbers/23-19.htm']19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?[/URL]
It is the lineage of Jacob who are saved, not Esau.
Only God knows who they are. NOT all who are Jews are saved but all of Jacob are.
Romans 9:13
13So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not!…
THE JEWS.....The Complication. God will handle it we are to profess Christ. But for sure God does not change .
Hebrews 13:8
8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God are "Yes" in Christ. And so through Him, our "Amen" is spoken to the glory of God.

 

[Adonia]

Why do you believe you are saved Adonia? Or don't you know for sure?

I am saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that which is the focus of our worship at Holy Mass. That does not however preclude me from having the opinion that I have about other folks who do not claim the title "Christian" but live the example of Christ more fully than I myself sometimes do.

 

[Adonia]

I thought this was a Baptist Blog, why are there Catholics in here?

For the free and open exchange of ideas. Kudos to the BB folks for having the "Other Christian Denominations" section.