Bo BOTH Cals/Arms Affirm We MUST excercise Saving Faith To become Christians?

[JesusFan]

just asking this, as some seem to believe that one can be actually saved, going to heaven, and NOT exercise their own personal faith?

That God eithers gives the faith, so that they do NOTHING to get saved, or else gets them to heaven even IF never exercised faith in this life?

 

[kyredneck]

.....they do NOTHING ......

It [edit] (eternal life) is called a FREE GIFT.

If something is free you do nothing for it.

If something is a gift you do nothing for it.

Ever wonder why Paul calls it a FREE GIFT?

........and people still don't get it............

 

[revmwc]

Check this out and you might get the answer.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=71822

From the Website Calvanist believe:

"Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God."

Arminianist believe:
"The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is called a FREE GIFT.

If something is free you do nothing for it.

If something is a gift you do nothing for it.

Ever wonder why Paul calls it a FREE GIFT?

........and people still don't get it............

Yea ..... Duh? :laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

It is called a FREE GIFT.

If something is free you do nothing for it.

If something is a gift you do nothing for it.

Ever wonder why Paul calls it a FREE GIFT?

........and people still don't get it............

Well said KR

and NOT exercise their own personal faith?

All believers exercise saving faith....after it is given to them. Faith is an instrumentality that lays hold of the promises.

Every believer ,,, believes
Every believer... repents
"" "' ...serves God
"" ''' ....does good works
"" """ .....follows peace and holiness,without which no man shall see the Lord

But it is God who is the author and finisher of our faith

Some think that man is the Author and Finisher...but scripture says it is God

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

 

[JesusFan]

It [edit] (eternal life) is called a FREE GIFT.

If something is free you do nothing for it.

If something is a gift you do nothing for it.

Ever wonder why Paul calls it a FREE GIFT?

........and people still don't get it............

Unless you appropiate it for yourself though, and that means would be "by faith"

You have a "Gift on Hold" that would never get claimed!

 

[JesusFan]

Well said KR



All believers exercise saving faith....after it is given to them. Faith is an instrumentality that lays hold of the promises.

Every believer ,,, believes
Every believer... repents
"" "' ...serves God
"" ''' ....does good works
"" """ .....follows peace and holiness,without which no man shall see the Lord

But it is God who is the author and finisher of our faith

Some think that man is the Author and Finisher...but scripture says it is God

Doesnt that refer though to the Object of the faith, that being the Cross of Christ?

isn't savation itself totally of God, free gift, but one MUST exercise his/her faith in response to it and thus receive it?

You can have personal faith, and that NOT being seen as adding a "work" to Gospel!

 

[revmwc]

Doesnt that refer though to the Object of the faith, that being the Cross of Christ?

isn't savation itself totally of God, free gift, but one MUST exercise his/her faith in response to it and thus receive it?

You can have personal faith, and that NOT being seen as adding a "work" to Gospel!

I added quotes from the website on my post #3 for the two camps views.

 

[Iconoclast]

isn't savation itself totally of God, free gift,

yes it is.....

but one MUST exercise his/her faith in response to it and thus receive it?

no.....see rev macs chart
saving faith is a gift....no one has it unless God grants,or graces it..



it is not a fifty fifty proposition..

 

[JesusFan]

no.....see rev macs chart
saving faith is a gift....no one has it unless God grants,or graces it..



it is not a fifty fifty proposition..

but what IF faith proceeds regeneration in a Christian than?

One believes what he hears, allowed to by God, and the exercising of his faith in Jesus by power of Holy Spirit causes the regeneration to occur AFTER the faith in Christ being placed...

 

[glfredrick]

This is not really that difficult a topic. List out the component parts of "salvation" and see who does what...

Election before the foundation of the world -- God
Effectual Call -- God
Regeneration -- God
Justification -- God
Faith/Repentance -- God's gift to which man responds
Adoption as sons -- God
Sanctification (being conformed to the image of Christ -- set apart for His own purpose) -- God's grace and man's will/works
Perseverance -- God's grace
Glorification -- God

 

[webdog]

just asking this, as some seem to believe that one can be actually saved, going to heaven, and NOT exercise their own personal faith?

That God eithers gives the faith, so that they do NOTHING to get saved, or else gets them to heaven even IF never exercised faith in this life?

I just wanted to say that I appreciate your questions, JF. Keep asking them...you are clearly seeing the inconsistencies in your view, much as I did a few years back and asked these same kind of questions. The only true monergistic position does not need faith. If you need to cut down a tree and I give you a chainsaw...or you were born owning a chainsaw...who cuts down the tree?

This "gift of faith" is theological science fiction. Of course it is a gift that God only requires faith, but it is the object of faith that saves, not faith in itself. Even a gift has to be accepted. Grace is not opposed to effort, grace is opposed to earning.

Keep on asking!

 

[Allan]

This is not really that difficult a topic. List out the component parts of "salvation" and see who does what...

Election before the foundation of the world -- God
Effectual Call -- God
Regeneration -- God
Justification -- God
Faith/Repentance -- God's gift to which man responds
Adoption as sons -- God
Sanctification (being conformed to the image of Christ -- set apart for His own purpose) -- God's grace and man's will/works
Perseverance -- God's grace
Glorification -- God

Hmmm.. Interesting.. you have justification prior to faith. Justification is making one judicially right before God - ie. In our case, the removal of sin through payment for sin.

Yet scripture states we are "Justified" by faith, not prior to it, just as it does regarding our sanctification done by God (which is a one time event, not the sanctification we are to strive for and walk in which is illustrated in your 7th proposition).

The understanding of regeneration (not just what it does but 'how' and 'when' it does this).. gives a better understanding justification as well as a better grasp of faith, and when it comes into play in the process of salvation.

It is one of the reasons your proposition of order (regarding #2, 3, 4, and 5) are easily understood as incorrect.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Jesus fan...

isn't savation itself totally of God, free gift, but one MUST exercise his/her faith in response to it and thus receive it?

You are 100% correct. God does not have automatron robots who embrace Christ because they are programmed to. God have mercy.

You can have personal faith, and that NOT being seen as adding a "work" to Gospel!

Absolutly. You are 100% correct again.

Every person is given the choice to embrace Christ or reject Him. The Holy Spirit convicts and draws...and the person has a choice to make.

Praise the Lord.

 

[Skandelon]

Faith/Repentance -- God's gift to which man responds

Whoa, in the other thread you said that you didn't believe "that man and man's efforts play a pivotal role in the salvific endeavor," yet now you say man must respond in the salvation process? When I attempted to correct you by showing that Calvinists affirm unconditional election, not unconditional salvation you railed on me saying, "I am confusing nothing. I am quite well versed in both Calvinism and Arminianism as theological systems. You, here, are working to erect a strawman that I never propose."

So, which is it, does man play a role in salvation or not?

 

[Winman]

Hmmm.. Interesting.. you have justification prior to faith. Justification is making one judicially right before God - ie. In our case, the removal of sin through payment for sin.

Yet scripture states we are "Justified" by faith, not prior to it, just as it does regarding our sanctification done by God (which is a one time event, not the sanctification we are to strive for and walk in which is illustrated in your 7th proposition).

The understanding of regeneration (not just what it does but 'how' and 'when' it does this).. gives a better understanding justification as well as a better grasp of faith, and when it comes into play in the process of salvation.

It is one of the reasons your proposition of order (regarding #2, 3, 4, and 5) are easily understood as incorrect.

How can a person have spiritual life until he is justified and his sins forgiven? Can a man be spiritually alive AND dead in sins at the same time? Absurd!

You must believe and be justified before you can be spiritually alive.

 

[Iconoclast]

You must believe and be justified before you can be spiritually alive.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

did you mis-type this?

Welcome back webdog

 

[Alive in Christ]

Webdog

You must believe and be justified before you can be spiritually alive.

Correct. We are all spiritually dead, until we embrace Christ. Until then we are alive physically, but dead spiritually.

When we respond to the Holy Spirits drawing and convicting, and surrender ourselves to the Lord Jesus Christ we are at that moment regenerated, justified, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and sealed permanently into the body of Christ.

Praise the Lord! Glory to God! I remember that blessed moment years ago when I became brand new as if it were just yesterday.

What a day that was. What a great God we have and serve

 

[Allan]

How can a person have spiritual life until he is justified and his sins forgiven? Can a man be spiritually alive AND dead in sins at the same time? Absurd!

You must believe and be justified before you can be spiritually alive.

I have no clue what you are getting here regarding my post. Are you addressing my post as though it disagrees with you? If so, please read it again.

While there is much I disagree with you on, in this we both seem to be saying the same thing

 

[Winman]

but what IF faith proceeds regeneration in a Christian than?

One believes what he hears, allowed to by God, and the exercising of his faith in Jesus by power of Holy Spirit causes the regeneration to occur AFTER the faith in Christ being placed...

JF, you are starting to understand properly now. Faith must precede regeneration, because you cannot be free of your sins until you believe and are justified. You cannot be spiritually alive while you are still in your sins, it is your sin that causes death (the wages of sin is death).

You cannot be regenerated for even one millisecond before faith or you would be a born again sinner! This is impossible, yet many Reformed teach a person can be regenerated for years, even decades before trusting Christ. This would be a person who is spiritually alive AND spiritually dead in sins for years! You can easily see how nonsensical this view is.

Jesus said the DEAD can hear his voice, and they (the dead) that HEAR (believe) SHALL (afterward) live. (Jn 5:25).

It is the removal of your sins that makes you alive. Sin causes you to be separated from God ( spiritual death). The moment you are justified your sins are removed and you are no longer separated from God but reconciled. But you must first believe to be justified, all scripture says this.

Keep studying.