Board member is wrong on abortion

[donnA]

Its you women who are divided on this topic 50/50. You need to straighten it out.

First off, I'm not divided on anything abortion, when I say Ia m anti abortion I mean it and will not lend my support to it in anyway, that includes obama, not like you, the great god obama has spoken and ti is so, those babies are not persons and do not deserve life, and you lift him up high.

I just think all you people on here are so into this right vs left,

I think whats right is not support the murder of babies, sorry you don't see it that way.

very very complex issue

God calls it murder, not complex at all is it when you seek God on it, not men.
God is the creator, no baby happens unless God allows it,. we see it over and over in scripture, God creates a child in His image and we have christians defending the murder of that same child.

1. A married pastor has an affair with a married congregant and gets her pregnant. Now she has do decide to go thru with it knowing full well that it will destroy two families, end a pastors career, and probally split a church. No one knows about the affair except the two of them. What does she do? Its all on her back, not the pastor. (By the way this is a scenario thats happened before in a number of situations a various denominations).

She decided already to destroy two families when she had the affair with the pastor, equally he also made the same decision. If this man does not leave his church there needs to be a split, you can support a murder or find a biblical church.
Your wrong someone else does know about the affair.
So they do a great evil, and you ok it for them to further their great evil by murdering an innocent child God created in His image? This man is not fit to pastor, he is about to murder his child.
not a very christian view point.

2. A married congregant gets raped and gets pregnant. What does she do? The husband(they also have 3 children) does not want the baby(very real).
Again its all on her back(not the rapist and not the husband), Does she keep the baby knowing full well it will rip her family apart?

Again your leaving God out of the picture.
In both stories, God has been left out, by you and the people in the story. He can't be very important to anyone involved if it's so easy to leave Him out.

Some people on this board are living in a dream world.

This is what you call biblical living? A dream world. Sorry, I'll take God and His true written word any day over this garbage your spouting.

PS. Thats why abortion is a very complex topic because the situations are complex and thats why the nation and women in particular are divided.

Ask God what He thinks of murdering innocent babies by ripping them to pieces, by burning them to death, by stabbing them in the head with scissors, and see if He thinks it complex.

Matt, are you a women? I was asking women to respond?

I agree with Matt, and I am a woman.

 

[rbell]

Shinning (didn't you mean "shining?"),

Put all the parameters you want on your desired responses. This is a Christian board, and you simply are not going to find support for your situational ethics here.

Most Christians have abandoned the, "you shouldn't have an abortion unless you really, REALLY need to kill the child" rationale. We've also abandoned the, "only females have a right to discuss the issue of 'terminating the mass inside their bodies'," as a barbaric and unChristian notion. Join the crowd with the Biblical viewpoint on this. You'll be welcome, and your conscience will thank you.

 

[shinninglight]

Donna, thanks for responding. You show true passion for what you believe in but get rid of the antisocialist sign. I keep thinking I'm in the 50's.

Lets hear from some other women.

p.s. Donna, you showed real courage by responding to the two scenarios and I respect that.

 

[saturneptune]

PS. Thats why abortion is a very complex topic because the situations are complex and thats why the nation and women in particular are divided.

That is where you are about as wrong as one can get. Abortion is the simplest issue in the world. Calvinsim is complex, end times are complex, dispensationalism is complex, various vice issues can be complex, but this one, that is ridiculous.

 

[annsni]

I still stand by my statement that its women who want an abortion and doctors that perform them who kill babies. No president or policy will stop this. If a women wants to get an abortion no government policy will stop this. We have to get real here and stop living in la la land.

This is untrue. If a woman's mind is made up, yes, she will still have an abortion. However, those who find that it is illegal and dangerous to have one will not have one and will find another solution. As for the presidency and congress, every single person who has voted to approve this barbaric act is as guilty of the sin as if they did it themselves.

I myself am against abortion, I value life over death. But I can't imagine if one was a women and was raped and got pregnant. Carrying the fetus of the rapist. What decision to make?

Be greater than the situation and give the baby the gift of life. If you don't think you can live looking at that child each day, then put it up for adoption. There are so many childless couples who will not have a child but would give the world to have that "fetus".

No wonder the country is divided 50/50 on this issue. The biggest problem on the abortion issue are the women who have had multiple abortions and continue to use abortions as a form of birth control.

With freely accessible abortions, this will continue. How do you propose to decrease these numbers?

But getting back to Obama. Lady Eagle, If you are calling Obama a butcher then you have to say the same for George W Bush for have sending your servicemen to Iraq for Oil and costing thousands of lives and casulties to both US forces and Iraqi civilians.

Those who went to fight for our freedom (it was not over oil - it was because of the threats against our country) chose to do so. They could have become accountants or doctors or waiters - but they chose to fight for our country. President Bush assigned these men to do just what they signed up to do. As for the Iraqi civilians, how many more did we save from the brutality of a dictator? Every single serviceman who returned from that area said that the people of Iraq are grateful for what we did. Too bad those in our own country disagree.

 

[annsni]

RBELL states, "Actually, you are defending his abortion views.

I'm sorry...what part of killing a child do you find debatable?

What a horrible, unBiblical, and demented viewpoint."

Ther you go spewing off again.

I'm not defending his abortion views, I'm just saying that he has very little control just like Bush's policies didn't stop abortions. If a women wants an abortion she will find an abortionist. There's lots out there. Even grandmothers are doing abortions and have been doing so for ages. In Canada and the US(in the 40s and 50s) it was quite common for women to go local houses were abortions were done in private by older women. Its still done today and especially in foriegn countries).

Lets get real hear folks, a women is going to do what she feels compelled to do. I hate abortion, I really do.

That's correct. And people will do drugs so why don't we get the government involved and let them provide the drugs for the users so they can be sure they're safe drugs. Regulate the making of the drugs and let doctors give them out.

Or rapists will still continue to rape but let's make it safe. Give them condoms. Give them HIV testing and let's also provide a hotel room so atleast it's a clean environment.

Finally, parents will still abuse their children. So let's give them the proper tools to do so so they can do it effectively.

Seriously - that is the stupidist excuse to continue to provide legal abortions I've ever heard.

 

[shinninglight]

Annsni, thanks for your reponse. I agree with you that the adoption choice is a good one.

You state...Those who went to fight for our freedom (it was not over oil - it was because of the threats against our country) chose to do so


I really wonder what planet you were on when you made that statement. I can guarrantee you 110%...make that 150%.....that if Iraq had no oil....the US would not have been there......Canada knew it....all of Europe(ex UK) knew it... and everyone else knew it.

Its funny how there is an inquiry in the UK to find out how the UK got involved in Iraq. The English want Blairs blood.

 

[annsni]

I would like to hear from all the women board members on this.

Two scenario's, hypothetical but also very real.

1. A married pastor has an affair with a married congregant and gets her pregnant. Now she has do decide to go thru with it knowing full well that it will destroy two families, end a pastors career, and probally split a church. No one knows about the affair except the two of them. What does she do? Its all on her back, not the pastor. (By the way this is a scenario thats happened before in a number of situations a various denominations).

2. A married congregant gets raped and gets pregnant. What does she do? The husband(they also have 3 children) does not want the baby(very real).
Again its all on her back(not the rapist and not the husband), Does she keep the baby knowing full well it will rip her family apart?

Some people on this board are living in a dream world. These cases and many other tough situations are being played out by the thousands. Real Real tough choices. I want to hear from the women on this board how they would respond(put your self in the women above positions for just a split second).

PS. Thats why abortion is a very complex topic because the situations are complex and thats why the nation and women in particular are divided.

OK - I'm a woman and I'll answer:

#1 - Idiot and Ms. Idiot need to face their sin and the consequences. He gave up the pulpit the moment he decided to even look at another woman with lust. He deserves to lose his church and his ministry. To kill the child is just a nail in the coffin.

#2 - To punish a child for the sin of his father is disgusting. The child, if given the choice, would choose life. If a husband cares so little for his wife that he would prefer that she murder her child rather than him seeing that child, then he is not worthy to be a husband or father.

OK - Situation #3 - I'll give one to you:

The 20-something child of a Baptist minister has an affair with a married doctor. She becomes pregnant and hides that pregnancy. She can easily have an abortion because it's legal and that would prevent her father from ever knowing - and his congregation. The married doctor won't do anything for her. What should she do?

I'll tell you what she did. She had me and gave me up for adoption.

 

[annsni]

You state...Those who went to fight for our freedom (it was not over oil - it was because of the threats against our country) chose to do so


I really wonder what planet you were on when you made that statement. I can guarrantee you 110%...make that 150%.....that if Iraq had no oil....the US would not have been there......Canada knew it....all of Europe(ex UK) knew it... and everyone else knew it.

Its funny how there is an inquiry in the UK to find out how the UK got involved in Iraq. The English want Blairs blood.

Yeah, well the blood that is over in Iraq is my own family blood (obviously in light of the above post, not my physical blood but my family none-the-less). My brother chose to join the Navy and he knows it was his choice that caused him to go to war.

As for the oil situation, I will just respectfully disagree. I have spoken to those in the military. It was not oil we fought for - and every single person who has thanked us for freeing them from the tyranny that was their government will too.

 

[donnA]

Donna, thanks for responding. You show true passion for what you believe in but get rid of the antisocialist sign. I keep thinking I'm in the 50's.

Lets hear from some other women.

p.s. Donna, you showed real courage by responding to the two scenarios and I respect that.

Thansk you very much, I appreciate not being attaked for my biblical anti abortion views.

 

[donnA]

I'll tell you what she did. She had me and gave me up for adoption.

AMEN for doing whats right

 

[Johnv]

I would like to hear from all the women board members on this.

I'm a man, but I see no reason why men can't put their two cents in:

A married pastor has an affair with a married congregant and gets her pregnant. Now she has do decide to go thru with it knowing full well that it will destroy two families, end a pastors career, and probally split a church. No one knows about the affair except the two of them. What does she do? Its all on her back, not the pastor. (By the way this is a scenario thats happened before in a number of situations a various denominations).

The comment "it will destroy two families" is laughable. The decision for two people to have an affair destroys a family. The pregnancy that results is a matter of consequence. The woman needs to give birth to the child, and can adopt it out if she believes that's in the child's best interest (the best interest of the adult becomes secondary once a child is concieved). The pastor will likely be defrocked, and cause his congregation strife. If he cared abotu his congregation and family in the first place, he wouldn't have had an affair.

2. A married congregant gets raped and gets pregnant. What does she do? The husband(they also have 3 children) does not want the baby(very real).

The wife should give birth and give it up for adoption. Again, the best interest of the child outweighs the best interest of the rest of the family. If my wife or daughter got pregnant that way, it wouldn't even be an issue for me.

Thats why abortion is a very complex topic because the situations are complex and thats why the nation and women in particular are divided.

Nonelective abortion is a very complex issue, because it must weigh a mother's health into the decision. But on the issue of elective abortion, there's never an appropriate reason for it, since it always results in the taking of a completely innocent life.

 

[Revmitchell]

Calling the unborn child a "fetus" may work to soothe the minds of those who conveniently use it when they want to condone the slaughter of unborn children as a compromise to a difficult situation but it fails to tell the truth. The word Fetus may dehumanize unborn children in the mind of some but again it fails to tell the truth.

And by the way it is against the rules of this board to condone slaughtering unborn children in any circumstance.

 

[Johnv]

And by the way it is against the rules of this board to condone slaughtering unborn children in any circumstance.

Good point. All who post have a responsibility to adhere to the rules as deemed by the moderators and administrators of this site. The rule is as follows:

"... topics and/or posts that seek to promote clearly unscriptural and controversial social and moral positions, such as abortion, are prohibited as well. The official position of The Baptist Board is that life begins at conception. Statements of fact that would contradict the board’s position on this issue will be edited or deleted entirely..."

As discerning and respectful Christians, we should be able to engage in discussion on this or any other topic without disrespecting the rules of the board.

 

[windcatcher]

I would like to hear from all the women board members on this.

Two scenario's, hypothetical but also very real.

1. A married pastor has an affair with a married congregant and gets her pregnant. Now she has do decide to go thru with it knowing full well that it will destroy two families, end a pastors career, and probally split a church. No one knows about the affair except the two of them. What does she do? Its all on her back, not the pastor. (By the way this is a scenario thats happened before in a number of situations a various denominations).

2. A married congregant gets raped and gets pregnant. What does she do? The husband(they also have 3 children) does not want the baby(very real).
Again its all on her back(not the rapist and not the husband), Does she keep the baby knowing full well it will rip her family apart?

Some people on this board are living in a dream world. These cases and many other tough situations are being played out by the thousands. Real Real tough choices. I want to hear from the women on this board how they would respond(put your self in the women above positions for just a split second).

PS. Thats why abortion is a very complex topic because the situations are complex and thats why the nation and women in particular are divided.

I'm a woman..... and I think my feminine personallity shows through many of my threads in spite of my stubborness, ere, and logic: I'm distinctively verbose.... a feminine trait....

Regarding both hypothetical senarios:
First of all.... I wonder why is it necessary to describe these persons as pastors, congregants, etc.... unless its a slip designed to 'emotionally' target a specific group. Sin is a human condition which all persons are subject and slave to unless they have the Lord and his spirit guiding them... and even then.... they can be tempted if they are not watchful:

But a person who has salvation and Biblical values, who takes his eyes off the Lord to be enticed by his own lusts... and then finds himself facing consequences of moral failure will likely attempt or entertain very desperate solutions similar to King David's moral failure with Bassheba........ which only leads to greater trouble and difficulty in coming to repentance and restoration and peace..... sometimes the effects will linger on inspite of acknowledgement and repentance... but those are the breaks for having strayed to begin with.

1) In the first senario..... the options are still plentious regarding the woman with child. She can choose to keep or adopt out. As to making this public and exposing the father... it is a matter of conscience.... but I've seen nothing in the Bible which requires that this open exposure be done if true repentance is involved, which should include separation from all contact: The man who fathers a child by a woman, other than his wife, has responsibility for providing for that child if the child is kept... which likely means his own disclosure (and repentance before God and his family) to his wife and family..... and the scandal or gossip may not be contained. I wont get into worthiness of continuing in ministry regardless of public knowledge or lack thereof as this is well off topic.... trying to stay with the abortion issue here: Abortion is not an option and will not solve anything: Actually, it is likely to complicate the processes of repentance and reconciliation before God in the believer..... not the matter of God's faithfulness..... but the areas of faith and 'fruits worthy of repentance' which allows the believer to accept God's forgiveness and the return to his first love. As for the marriage and the relationship...... God did not give divorce... Moses did.... and Jesus acknowledged this.... but it will place a strain on both parties to forgive and reconcile their relationship of trust and the brunt of it will be born by the partner who was so morally weak to initiate the breach in the first place.

2) The other senario..... if the relationship is already loving and the husband loves his wife as Christ loved the church and gave his life for it.... the husband will not look upon the child as an offense of rape.... but as the product of God's will in giving life and respect and receive the child as his own, the fruit of his wife's womb.... if this is their desire. If they haven't the grace to receive the child as their own and would reserve offense against the child, either in the present or in the future.... which they are unable to reconcile, then ideally they will consider early adoption into a loving Christian home where the child will be wanted and loved without reservation. This is a deeply personal decision which they both should agree ...... and they have 9 months to determine what choice is best for them and within God's will. Whatever this couple's decision it is personal and between them and God and should not be open to the judgement or second guessing of supportive and loving members within the believer's community.

This seems like an attack or a question of sanity vs delusion. Yes, many in the world are delusional....... in thinking they neither need God, nor believe in him, or that they don't sin, or in accusing Christians of not being in touch regarding sin. Actually, it is the Christian, who has been forgiven and received the mercy and the grace of God who better understands the bondage of sin and the freedom God gives as well as the strength to stand against sin. It is the Christian who knows the unhappiness and pain sin causes and who, having found relief, is aware of dangers playing 'too near the fire', the price of sin paid by God's only Son, and the judgement of eternal damnation to those who live and die without receiving faith in Jesus as their Saviour. Therefore, regarding the ire a Christian demonstrates in standing against sin...... it is not delusional. It is godly and constructive: We are taught to be angry and sin not. We are cautioned not to teach others to break the law nor to take pleasure in those who do. Abortion is murder: No doubt, many have made this choice..... at some time in their life..... and some of them weren't saved and some possibly were..... but all are likely in a posistion to grief and regret..... and in need of forgiveness and restoration.... if repentant. It is a terrible tragedy and that decision is murder for those who choose that path. There are some who can receive them and others who can't...... it is a matter of conscience and the extension of the grace of God who gives some the ability to restore fellowship: But, it is understandable that many are so repulsed by the sin that they are slow or find difficult to restore persons with moral failure to close fellowship. The epistles of Paul deal with this problem and recognize the difficulty involved. Christ has called us to love one another and pray for each other, and encourage one another.

 

[shinninglight]

Windcatcher, I admire and respect your answer. You put great effort into your response. You are an American who is not only a deep thinker but one who is firm in her beliefs and ideals. I agree with you.

 

[shinninglight]

I would like to hear from LadyEagle. I invite her to take a crack at the two scenarios keeping in mind -for a split second-placing yourself in the position. Would you give up the baby for adoption or would you keep it? I'm interested how your response would compare to the wonderful response of Windcatcher. By the way windcatcher, I think you not only have a lot of courage and smarts but also a lot of class.

 

[windcatcher]

Addendum to previous posting:

In both cases..... persons who are not Christians, may or may not have moral values which they compromised, and have their own degrees of regrets...... but the consequences of sin is death...... and whether they recognize this reality spiritually or not..... the consequences of their choices can either harden them or bring them to the Saviour. When society changes its law to allow sin and compromise God's law of absolutes, sin abounds more. Like Paul explains, though God's grace perserveres.... for the repentant...... when sin abounds.... can we say that grace abounds more? The effect of law is to present boundaries and consequences for breaking the law. The law is our teacher..... and makes us aware of sin. When we remove the law or change the landmark..... we do not change God's law which is always operational, whether or not acknowledged by man/society..... but man loses the compass which tells him where God set the boundaries... and those things which would operate on his conscience and bring him to repentance are diluted.

Still, praise God, his spirit is available and most capable of moving upon the hearts of men to woo them to repentance.

 

[OldRegular]

But getting back to Obama. Lady Eagle, If you are calling Obama a butcher then you have to say the same for George W Bush for have sending your servicemen to Iraq for Oil and costing thousands of lives and casulties to both US forces and Iraqi civilians.

Don't peddle that garbage about the Iraq war being over oil. Many people were against the war, perhaps rightly so, but to say it was over oil is to repeat the lies of the leftist whackos in the country.

Also comparing the slaughter of inborn or just born children which Obama supports and has encouraged by changing the Mexico City policy is nonsense but to be expected from one who parrots the mantra "the Iraq war was for oil".

 

[targus]

I would like to hear from LadyEagle. I invite her to take a crack at the two scenarios keeping in mind -for a split second-placing yourself in the position. Would you give up the baby for adoption or would you keep it? I'm interested how your response would compare to the wonderful response of Windcatcher. By the way windcatcher, I think you not only have a lot of courage and smarts but also a lot of class.

Why is it important or necessary for you to know if any board member - let alone a particular board member would raise a child or put it up for adoption under your hypothetical situations.

From what I know about LadyEagle - in the extremely unlikely possibility that she would find herself in such a situation - she would not abort the child.

For you to push this as you are smacks of harassement to me.