1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Books on Translation

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by John of Japan, Jun 22, 2022.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,913
    Likes Received:
    240
    What happens though when the translation made disagrees from how the Kjvo see it as should be though?

    And where do they get idea that Lexicons are bad, as should not any valid translation use among sources original language texts and the various original language tools such as lexicons and dictionaries available?

    Would that view not be basically stating God directly inspired the translation made, no need for immediate tools?
     
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,514
    Likes Received:
    1,817
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The movement of the KJVO position into missionary translation efforts is too new to make this judgment.

    Riplinger's book Hazardous Materials. I've read some of it, and it makes no sense to me. To his credit, Combs does not buy into all of Riplinger, since he does use some lexicons.

    The author does not say that a translation can be inspired. There is a fine line there. Radical KJVO people say the KJV is inspired just like the originals. Combs does not go that far.
     
  3. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,490
    Likes Received:
    455
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Perhaps at times Steve Combs may erase part of that fine line.

    Steve Combs asserted that the KJV "is a completely accurate translation" (Translator's Greek Grammar, p. 15) and that "the KJV is an accurate translation and is the word of God without error in the English language" (p. 84).

    Steve Combs wrote: "How did the KJV translators decide what edits to make to the TR? They certainly arrived at their conclusions by divine guidance" (p. 72).
    Combs added: "The KJV translation and its suggested changes to Beza's 1598 text was an important step towards a completely pure Greek text" (p. 73).
    Combs asserted: "It should be noted that the edits to the Received Text made by the translators of the King James Bible were the final edits made to the Received Text" (p. 75).
    Combs wrote: "The God of history led the work that was done on the TR by Dr. Scrivener. His edition was the final edition of the TR" (p. 75).
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,514
    Likes Received:
    1,817
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Dewey Beegle, God's Word into English. Grand Rapids: Eerdman's, 1960

    This is another book on the history of the English Bible, but it's not near as good as the one by Ira Price. (See above.) It's actually more of an apology (in the sense of defense) for new translations in English. The preface says, "The immediate goal of this book is to indicate the essential translation features which enable the modern reader to understand most clearly the truths intended by God's messengers in the Old and New Testaments" (p. ix).

    The very first chapter is, "Why Revise God's Word?" It tells of a few changed English meanings, and a few places where the author feels the KJV could have been translated better. The rest of the book is more of the same. So, this book is quite out of date, and has nowhere near the rich history given by Ira Price's book. It's interesting to have if you want a big library on Bible translation, and that's about it. (Someone remind me why I still have it, please. :Whistling)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,514
    Likes Received:
    1,817
    Faith:
    Baptist
    C. S. Lewis. The Literary Impact of the Authorized Version. Philadelphia, Fortress Press, 1963.

    This is just a pamphlet of 37 pages, but it's by C. S. Lewis, the great Christian author! While I disagree with much of his theology, he was an exceptional writer, so anyone ought to enjoy reading this book, especially if they love the KJV. The theme of the little book is how the KJV and other of the early English Bible translations impacted and changed the English language. It is well worth the read. You can check it out here: The Literary Impact of The Authorised Version · PDF fileC.S. Lewis, The Literary Impact of The Authorised Version. The Ethel M. Wood Lecture delivered before the University of London - [PDF Document].
     
    #45 John of Japan, Jul 7, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2022
    • Informative Informative x 2
  6. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    9,704
    Likes Received:
    1,317
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I came across a passage in Genesis today (63:24) about Isaac “meditating” in the field.
    I was confuse by lasuah, translated as “meditate”.
    And then stumbled into another interesting phrase while looking at the first one … we-hinne, and behold”.

    Gary Rendsburg wrote a book, not necessarily on translation, but on the numerous literary techniques found in the Hebrew Scriptures.

    How The Bible Is Written,
    by Gary A. Rendsburg.
    Hendrickson Publishers, 2019
    (640 pp)

    In this case, Rendsburg made a case for “meditate in the field” rightly translated as “urinate in the field” (but both may be right, one can meditate while urinating after all).
    And interested me even more however, was the connector.
    …we-hinne ‘and behold’ is employed to allow the reader to view the scene through the eyes of the character—what Anderson called ‘participant perspective’, the equivalent of the ‘point-of-view shot’ (POV shot) in film.”​
    He provides examples that you can cinematically view in your mind (Genesis 8:11, 18:2; 24:15; 24:30; 26:8; Ex. 3:2; 14;10 …

    Finding a passage is a bit complicated since he organized the book by various literary techniques used (rather than by biblical passages), so one needs to reference the index to consult a passage.

    From the front book flap:
    “… How the Bible Is Written guides scholars and laypeople alike—into the original text of the Hebrew Bible and provides them with a greater appreciation of its literary artistry and linguistic virtuosity.

    In short, this book focuses not so much on what the Bible says as how the Bible says it. Specific topics treated include wordplay, alliteration, repetition with variation, dialect representation, intentionally confused language, marking closure, and more.”​

    This is a book that would be helpful for translators (although it does not deal directly with translation techniques). It doesn't tell you how to translate a passage but concerns how the Bible communicates its message.

    Rob
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,514
    Likes Received:
    1,817
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I remember reading this, though I did not read the book straight through.

    He does put his foot over that fine line to say that the KJV is perfect, but I want to think--hope--that he doesn't follow his foot. I don't think he has thought through logically the implications of some of the things he writes.

    Good catch. Maybe we should describe Combs, then, as holding to a perfect Scrivener TR--which was then translated perfectly into the KJV.
     
  8. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,913
    Likes Received:
    240
    He seems to be equating the KJV as being in English just as inspired and inerrant as the Hebrew and Greek books were in their languages!
     
  9. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,913
    Likes Received:
    240
    Which would mean that he holds then that the Holy Spirit inspired both that TR and the Kjv same way did the originals!
     
  10. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,514
    Likes Received:
    1,817
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Seems like he tried not to say that but ended up saying it.
     
  11. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,831
    Likes Received:
    702
    Faith:
    Baptist
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,514
    Likes Received:
    1,817
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Back in 1961, a new translation of the New Testament came out called The New English Bible. The complete Bible came out in 1970. It caused quite a stir, was roundly criticized by conservatives, was revised as the Revised English Bible some years later, and seems to have sunk into oblivion. I have two pamphlets from those years by conservatives that are of historical interest. (I actually referred to them in that way in an academic paper I did some years ago.)

    The pamphlets almost scream, "Bad translation!!!" I want to make it clear, though, that I personally would never refer to any translation with the rhetoric these titles use. The Bible, even badly translated, simply cannot be a perversion or a project of Satan, though individual liberal renderings can be wrong and twist the Scripture translated.

    Ian R. K. Paisley, Version or Perversion? Belfast: Martyrs' Memorial Free Presbyterian Church, 1961.
    This pamphlet is by the famous Irish Protestant pastor and politician. Yes, that Ian Paisley. He was a real firebrand (I've heard him preach), and a fundamentalist in the mold of Bob Jones, Jr., who was a close friend. Paisley was also a friend to some degree with my grandfather, John R. Rice, and I've been told that he attended a birthday party of JRR back in the day, but that's all I know about that.

    The pamphlet's theme is kind of like, "That's not a Bible. Let me show you a real Bible!" But I must say Paisley was not KJVO. He simply objected to the liberalism of the translation. Here are some of his objections:
    1. The NEB does not have "only begotten" for monogenes (μονογενής) in John 3:16 and other places.
    2. Does not translate "Son of God" correctly in a number of passages. For example, it has "God's chosen one" in John 1:34 rather than "Son of God." Does not capitalize "Son" in various passages.
    3. Does not translate "virgin" (παρθένος) in Luke 1;26-27, having Mary as just a "girl."

    There are many similar deliberate mis-translations, so I have to say this might be the most liberal translation out there! Well, except for that Japanese translation I have that has in the table of contents "Books by Paul" and "Books Purported to Be by Paul." :eek:
     
  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,514
    Likes Received:
    1,817
    Faith:
    Baptist
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,514
    Likes Received:
    1,817
    Faith:
    Baptist
    M. L. Moser, Jr. The New English Bible, Satan's Polluted Translation. Little Rock, AR: The Challenge Press, 1971.

    I really don't like this title. Satan may try to influence Bible translations towards liberal (NEB, TEV) or cultic (JW) renderings. However, he has no Bibles.

    Having said that, Moser does a good job of showing the liberal bias in this translation. Since he can look at the OT, which was not finished when Paisley wrote his pamphlet, he can point out some new errors.

    He, too, noticed a bias against the virgin birth. For example, the NEB translates almah (עלמה) as "young woman" in Isaiah 7:14, a usual liberal ploy. Yes, yes, I know, some conservatives have also swallowed the line that almah actually means "young woman," but I don't buy that. I've done the research myself, and though the word occurs 9 times in the Hebrew OT, none of them demonstrably mean only "young woman" and not "virgin."

    Moser quotes an article by John R. Rice, who debunked the notion that the true Hebrew word for virgin is bethulah (בּתוּלה) by pointing out that Joel 1:8 uses bethulah for a married woman.

    Moser goes on to debunk the NEB treatment of passages proving the deity of Christ, and passages downplaying clear prophecies. Then he goes on to point out the clear liberalism of some of the translators, such as C. H. Dodd especially.
     
  15. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,162
    Likes Received:
    163
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "1. The NEB does not have "only begotten" for monogenes (μονογενής) in John 3:16 and other places.

    Matter of interpretation : Even many conservatives reject "only-begotten" and assert the meaning "unique"

    2. Does not translate "Son of God" correctly in a number of passages. For example, it has "God's chosen one" in John 1:34 rather than "Son of God."

    Minority variant reading issue rather than a translational matter.
     
  16. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,490
    Likes Received:
    455
    Faith:
    Baptist
    William Barrick wrote: "Too often translation critics employ subjective criteria too arbitrary to be of value" (p. 159).

    William Barrick observed: "For each single verse proof regarding inaccuracy in a version, one could probably find twice as many proofs of accuracy--and vice versa. A shogun approach will never reveal the true dimensions of a version's integrity and accuracy" (p. 190).

    William Barrick wrote: "It is well to keep in mind that one verse is not necessarily indicative of the kind of translation employed throughout an entire Bible translation" (p. 134).
     
  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,514
    Likes Received:
    1,817
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thanks for the added helpful info.

    "Only begotten" is one Greek word about which even conservative opinion has changed. Back in the day this pamphlet was written, conservatives felt that only liberals would leave off the "begotten."
     
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,514
    Likes Received:
    1,817
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have two books for the bored about the history of the English Bible, both with photos on almost every page, so the bored BB denizen can always just look at the pictures.

    David Beale, A Pictorial History of our English Bible. Greenville: Bob Jones U. Press, 1982.
    This is a great little book (66 pages) for the beginner in Bible translation history. It even closes with a nice but short glossary, which however only has 17 entries. Like I said, it's for beginners. Here's an interesting quote: "According to the catalogue of the British and Foreign Bible Society, the number of editions of the King James Bible (or parts of it) between 1611 and 1800 reached nearly a thousand and produced tens of thousands of minor variations from the original edition" (p. 43).
     
  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,514
    Likes Received:
    1,817
    Faith:
    Baptist
    John R. Hellstern and Donald L. Brake, Sr., The Fire of Devotion. Branson, MO: The Living Word National Bible Museum, n.d.

    I got this short book (letter size, 22 pages) at the Bible museum in Branson, MO, when we visited there on a furlough from Japan years ago. It’s a nice little booklet with plenty of pictures of some of the items that were in the museum, including 2nd-6th century papyrus fragments, a 1450 Wycliffe Bible, a Gutenberg page, etc. Best of all, they had a full sized working replica of Gutenberg’s press. Best of all, after a demonstration of the press, each visitor was allowed to take home a page printed from it of either the Gutenberg Bible or the original 1611 KJV; I chose the latter. I hope the museum is still there, but I can’t find a website of it.
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,464
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    Faith:
    Baptist
    • Informative Informative x 1
Loading...