Boots on the Ground

[Foxmeister]

You don't know anything about the Eastern Front whatsoever. That's ok, I once did not either. Operation Barbarossa the Germans turned from Great Britain and invaded the Soviet Union with 3 million men. The Americans never faced that many Germans, and almost all reinforcements from Germany went to the Eastern Front. 80 out of every 100 German Soldiers were killed by the Soviets. Look at all of the battles in Russia, Eastern Europe and Germany itself. We never faced anywhere near that many German Troops in WW2. Patton may have been brilliant, but he never saw as many Germans as were in the Great Battles. Operation Barbarossa, battle of Moscow, battle of Stalingrad, the Kursk Bulge. Operation Bagration (misspelled) the battle of Berlin.

Fact: American forces captured more than 3 million German soldiers during the final months of the war. 317,000 Germans were captured during the Battle of the Bulge. So, to say American forces didn't face as many Germans as the e Russians did is ludicrous.

During the war on the Eastern Front, 4 million Germans died compared to 8.6 million Russian soldiers. Another 19 million Russian civilians were killed by Germans.

You mentioned Operation Barbarossa. German forces had the Russians surrounded. The casualties were high on both ends, but much higher on the Russians side. Axis powers suffered 215,000 KIA and another 625,000 wounded and sick. The Russians suffered 800,000 KIA and another 1.4 million wounded and sick.

What hurt the Germans in the long run was they had underestimated the Germans. They thought the Russians would have been beaten before winter. Because of that estimate, the Germans were not prepared for winter.

 

[Foxmeister]

Because I love America and the truth. Not lies. To not acknowledge that the Soviets did by far most of the fighting against the Germans is plain jane dishonesty. I realize in your case you just don't know. But God used the Soviets to destroy Hitler. Without the Soviets we could not helped Europe at all. It does not matter whether you are pro American or pro Russian or pro people in General. It does not matter whether a person is an atheist or believer. The facts remain the same. For you to assert otherwise is not honesty. I once did not know the real history just like you. So I am not condemning you for I was once the same. But all you have to do is look at history, and you will learn how the Russians were called subhumans, just like he called the Jews, and planned to exterminate most Russians, allowing some hollow government to flee across the Ural mountains and those remaining behind to be only large enough so German Settlers could hire them as day labourers .

When the German soldiers defeated the Soviets and drove them back they moved into Russia homes and told the civilians to get out and they replied they will die in the winter and the Germans said that was their problem get out. More Soviets died at Hitlers hands than Jews did in WW2 by far. And who was it that liberated the famous death camps of Hitler in Poland! It was the Soviets! And when they reported to the allies what they saw it didn't make sense to them that Hitler would kill his slaves but he did. It was the Russians who drove Hitler back across Russia and across Poland and destroyed Berlin causing Hitler to commit suicide so he would not be captured alive!

First of all, the Russians occupied half of Poland before the war broke out them and Germany. Before US forces arrived in North Africa, the Brits were not making any headway against the Germans. Because of American forces, the Germans were pushed out of North Africa. They next went to Sicily and Italy and forced Italy to surrender and pushed the German forces out. Next, came France and Belgium. That's a huge footprint. On top of that, American and British forces were fighting the Japanese in the Pacific. Now imagine if you would if the Japanese hadn't attempted to expand their empire. With no war in the Pacific, the outcome of defeating Germany would have been much faster if the US had entered WWII in Europe much sooner. I would have to say Germany would have been defeated before the end of 1942.

Keep in mind as well that the US had been providing the Russians with supplies. Had that not happened, the Russians would have not have fared as well against the Germans. Another thing to take into consideration is Eisenhower ordered Allied forces to halt at the Elde and Mulde Rivers (70 miles from Berlin) so that the Russian forces could take Berlin. This was to appease Stalin. I look at this as Eisenhower's biggest mistake in the war. Allied forces should not have been stopped and instead should have taken Berlin. Had the Russians attempted to go to war with the Allied forces because of it, they would have lost. Keep in mind, we had the atomic bombs and they didn't.

 

[Conan]

First of all, the Russians occupied half of Poland before the war broke out them and Germany. Before US forces arrived in North Africa, the Brits were not making any headway against the Germans. Because of American forces, the Germans were pushed out of North Africa. They next went to Sicily and Italy and forced Italy to surrender and pushed the German forces out. Next, came France and Belgium. That's a huge footprint. On top of that, American and British forces were fighting the Japanese in the Pacific. Now imagine if you would if the Japanese hadn't attempted to expand their empire. With no war in the Pacific, the outcome of defeating Germany would have been much faster if the US had entered WWII in Europe much sooner. I would have to say Germany would have been defeated before the end of 1942.

Keep in mind as well that the US had been providing the Russians with supplies. Had that not happened, the Russians would have not have fared as well against the Germans. Another thing to take into consideration is Eisenhower ordered Allied forces to halt at the Elde and Mulde Rivers (70 miles from Berlin) so that the Russian forces could take Berlin. This was to appease Stalin. I look at this as Eisenhower's biggest mistake in the war. Allied forces should not have been stopped and instead should have taken Berlin. Had the Russians attempted to go to war with the Allied forces because of it, they would have lost. Keep in mind, we had the atomic bombs and they didn't.

You are right about the supplies we sent to the Soviets. They were very helpful. Infact they used the Studebaker Trucks we gave them to outmaneuver Army Group Center and destroy them. And the Allies could not have taken Berlin . Or perhaps they could have at great cost. More American troops were killed in the last months of the war even though everyone knew they were going to lose but they fought to the very, very last German. Or until Hitler committed suicide. Don't you think Eisenhower saved a lot of American Soldiers lives? Incalculable lives. He was smart to defer to the soviets. And you are also right about Americans defeating German divisions that could not come to Berlin at Hitlers call. Thank you for the factual insights.

 

[Ben1445]

So the moral of the story I am hearing is that we should let people who are merciless communist do the boots on the ground work. We should take a lesson from Poland and make sure we don’t come in contact with our “ally” and give Russia the permission to turn Iran into post war East Germany.
It doesn’t actually sound like you care about people.
But I guess we live in a world now where we celebrate the the people who do wrong and shame the people who did right.

I am glad for you that are proud of your “Uncle Joe” Stalin. At least you are proud of someone.
I have never said that the Russian soldiers were bad people, but I’ll say it now more clearly. Someone had to carry out the many massacres that are memorialized by Katyn Forrest. Someone did all of Stalins dirty work. Whitewash it all you want with your stories of how much they were used as cannon fodder, it’s still the worst looking wash job I’ve ever seen. Whitewashing communism is like putting clothes on a pig. You can cover it up for a moment but it’s not going to last. The filth takes over easily.

I prefer to continue to highlight the better side of the story because that is what I want people to know is the better approach. I’ll take an Eisenhower any day of the week over any of Stalins men. They were not any better than the nazis. They had no value for life. I’m sure there were some good people. I apologize for including them by and large. But if there were more of them doing right, there would have been far less civilian and POW murdered in the course of WWII.
The Russians did most of the killing. It just wasn’t all proper even for war.

 

[asterisktom]

So the moral of the story I am hearing is that we should let people who are merciless communist do the boots on the ground work. We should take a lesson from Poland and make sure we don’t come in contact with our “ally” and give Russia the permission to turn Iran into post war East Germany.
It doesn’t actually sound like you care about people.
But I guess we live in a world now where we celebrate the the people who do wrong and shame the people who did right.

I am glad for you that are proud of your “Uncle Joe” Stalin. At least you are proud of someone.
I have never said that the Russian soldiers were bad people, but I’ll say it now more clearly. Someone had to carry out the many massacres that are memorialized by Katyn Forrest. Someone did all of Stalins dirty work. Whitewash it all you want with your stories of how much they were used as cannon fodder, it’s still the worst looking wash job I’ve ever seen. Whitewashing communism is like putting clothes on a pig. You can cover it up for a moment but it’s not going to last. The filth takes over easily.

I prefer to continue to highlight the better side of the story because that is what I want people to know is the better approach. I’ll take an Eisenhower any day of the week over any of Stalins men. They were not any better than the nazis. They had no value for life. I’m sure there were some good people. I apologize for including them by and large. But if there were more of them doing right, there would have been far less civilian and POW murdered in the course of WWII.
The Russians did most of the killing. It just wasn’t all proper even for war.

We did our own "dirty work" like the Dresden firestorm bombing and Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The truth is complicated and messy. There are no totally white hats in that war.

I totally understand your view. I taught it when I taught history. But then I did some further research and had to change, somewhat, my teaching points..

 

[Foxmeister]

Allied forces were closer to Berlin than the Russians were when Eisenhower halted the allies 70 miles from Berlin. Casualties was not the only factor Eisenhower considered when halting allied forces on their advance to Berlin, even though they were much closer than the Russians. In an earlier post I wrote about the agreement between the US, UK, France and USSR in the division of Germany. Russia would get the east half and half of Berlin. The west half of Germany would be divided between the allies. Eisenhower's decision was based upon the division of Germany after the war. It was pretty much, why should we sacrifice so many lives when Russia has the most to gain. In all, the Russians lost almost 890,000 KIA and another 361,000 were out of the fight because of wounds and sickness.

That's not all the Russians lost. They lost nearly 2,000 tanks and self-propelled guns, and 900 aircraft. That was another factor used to verify why allied forces would allow Russia to take Berlin. Remember, we still had a war to finish in the Pacific.

When the agreement was made in Yalta on how to divide Germany and eastern Europe, the allies offered Japan large areas of Asia along Russia's border in exchange if they committed to fighting Japan. If you recall in my earlier post, the Truman casually mentioned to Stalin something about our atomic bomb. This was to let Russia know the US didn't need them anymore. Russia held out on sending his army into Manchuria. Russia had a timeline when to invade Manchuria. What he was doing was holding out as long as he could. When the first bomb was dropped on August 6, Stalin immediately altered his plans to attack on the 7th before the Japanese had a chance to surrender. He knew if he wouldn't get anything in Asia if he he didn't participate.

 

[Conan]

So the moral of the story I am hearing is that we should let people who are merciless communist do the boots on the ground work. We should take a lesson from Poland and make sure we don’t come in contact with our “ally” and give Russia the permission to turn Iran into post war East Germany.
It doesn’t actually sound like you care about people.
But I guess we live in a world now where we celebrate the the people who do wrong and shame the people who did right.

I am glad for you that are proud of your “Uncle Joe” Stalin. At least you are proud of someone.
I have never said that the Russian soldiers were bad people, but I’ll say it now more clearly. Someone had to carry out the many massacres that are memorialized by Katyn Forrest. Someone did all of Stalins dirty work. Whitewash it all you want with your stories of how much they were used as cannon fodder, it’s still the worst looking wash job I’ve ever seen. Whitewashing communism is like putting clothes on a pig. You can cover it up for a moment but it’s not going to last. The filth takes over easily.

I prefer to continue to highlight the better side of the story because that is what I want people to know is the better approach. I’ll take an Eisenhower any day of the week over any of Stalins men. They were not any better than the nazis. They had no value for life. I’m sure there were some good people. I apologize for including them by and large. But if there were more of them doing right, there would have been far less civilian and POW murdered in the course of WWII.
The Russians did most of the killing. It just wasn’t all proper even for war.

I am not a communist. But it doesn't mean they have cooties and should be called subhuman. Look at the Huge success of Operation Barbarossa and how they rolled across the Soviet Union. The Nazis claimed to be the superior race and they were unstoppable. They have previously outright whipped the British and the French. Now they were destroying Russia. Fortunately America needed the Soviets as American said so

 

[Mike B]

The Nazis claimed to be the superior race and they were unstoppable. They have previously outright whipped the British and the French. Now they were destroying Russia. Fortunately America needed the Soviets as American said so

I would suspect that IF Germany had not surrendered in May, the country may very well have soon been a recipient
of a package from the Manhattan Project in August.

One does have to wonder, if that had been the case, if the US would have needed a 1st or 2nd bomb on Japan.

 

[Conan]

Outcome: Decisive Soviet victory that destroyed Japan's last major land army and heavily influenced Tokyo's decision to surrender

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[Conan]

I would suspect that IF Germany had not surrendered in May, the country may very well have soon been a recipient
of a package from the Manhattan Project in August.

One does have to wonder, if that had been the case, if the US would have needed a 1st or 2nd bomb on Japan.

Not sure. Lots of stuff was destroyed in Germany and Japan. What German armies were left were probably surrounded by Russian, American or British forces. Probably like Japan the only thing we could have hit were civilian non military cities. The bombs were unnecessary and should have never been used. We are the only ones to have ever used them. And ever since the fall of the Soviet union we have silently let every nuclear treaty with the soviets expire because not so smart people think we have an advantage. In others words the Common Sense of Ronald Reagan and those like him are gone. Our current leadership as both Democratic and Republican let the whole world down by advancing war not having limitations of such war. Increasing war not decreasing war, especially nuclear. What was wrong with Ronald Reagan nuclear treaties? Nothing!

 

[Ben1445]

I am not a communist. But it doesn't mean they have cooties and should be called subhuman.

No one has done that. Oh! So much drama!!

Look at the Huge success of Operation Barbarossa and how they rolled across the Soviet Union. The Nazis claimed to be the superior race and they were unstoppable. They have previously outright whipped the British and the French.

The “out right whipped” British were still fighting and so were the displaced and defiant French. The Soviet Union could not have done what they did without the British, the French, the USA, etc. you are guilty of swinging the pendulum in the opposite extreme. You are at the very least, as wrong as you claim I am.

Now they were destroying Russia. Fortunately America needed the Soviets as American said so

It was fortunate that we needed help?

This statement doesn’t make much sense any way I read it. You have been spending too much time on the eastern front and consequently, by your logic, I understand very little of what you said.

 

[Ben1445]

Outcome: Decisive Soviet victory that destroyed Japan's last major land army and heavily influenced Tokyo's decision to surrender

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Because the soviets were collecting territory not liberating it.
You are conflating military activity with goodness.

 

[Conan]

No one has done that. Oh! So much drama!!


The “out right whipped” British were still fighting and so were the displaced and defiant French. The Soviet Union could not have done what they did without the British, the French, the USA, etc. you are guilty of swinging the pendulum in the opposite extreme. You are at the very least, as wrong as you claim I am.

The British were driven off of the European continent by the Germans and half of France was occupied by Germany the other half by the Fascist Vechy Government. There could be no D-Day invasion until the Soviets turned the tide of war against Germany.

It was fortunate that we needed help?

This statement doesn’t make much sense any way I read it. You have been spending too much time on the eastern front and consequently, by your logic, I understand very little of what you said.

A famous American General said, I want to keep 250 million Soviets in the fight against Germany. I can't remember his name nor the accurate number of Soviet citizens but the General obvious expressed intelligent American leadership at that time. A couple of dumb senators had expressed a desire that the Nazis Finnish the Communist. Real American leadership knew better. I wish you would learn about the Battles on the Eastern Front. Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Bagration. It's a part of history that escaped you. If I am somewhere fighting 250 Nazis that is good. But if you are somewhere else taking on 2000 Nazis that is even better. You see the difference.

 

[Conan]

Because the soviets were collecting territory not liberating it.
You are conflating military activity with goodness.

The Americans demanded the Soviets fulfill their obligation and attack Japan. They did so in a dramatic and good way. They smashed the Japanese in Manchuria. Smashed.

 

[Conan]

Iran Pledges to "Shatter US Foundations"

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[Foxmeister]

There could be no D-Day invasion until the Soviets turned the tide of war against Germany.

I think you should spend some time doing real research because Russia had nothing to do with why D-Day was able to happen. Long-range bombing of factories in Germany was a huge factor as we were crippling Germany's war time production as well as their capabilities to refine oil into fuel for tanks and other combat vehicles. We pushed the Germans out of North Africa, then Sicily and Italy, and then southern France. We weakened Germany's western front. I already explained most of this once.

A famous American General said, I want to keep 250 million Soviets in the fight against Germany. I can't remember his name nor the accurate number of Soviet citizens but the General obvious expressed intelligent American leadership at that time. A couple of dumb senators had expressed a desire that the Nazis Finnish the Communist.

I can find absolutely nothing that substantiates anything you claim here. Patton had it right when he said the Russians were a threat to Europe.

I wish you would learn about the Battles on the Eastern Front. Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Bagration.

I wish you would learn about the battles on the Western Front. If it hadn't been for the aid the US was giving Russia, they would have lost the Western Front.

Stalin had is forces staged to enter Manchuria, but he was stalling. Once the first atomic bomb was dropped, he had no choice but to use his forces against the Japanese in Manchuria. He knew if Japan surrendered first, he would be cut out of the deal of receiving new territory.

 

[Conan]

I think you should spend some time doing real research because Russia had nothing to do with why D-Day was able to happen. Long-range bombing of factories in Germany was a huge factor as we were crippling Germany's war time production as well as their capabilities to refine oil into fuel for tanks and other combat vehicles. We pushed the Germans out of North Africa, then Sicily and Italy, and then southern France. We weakened Germany's western front. I already explained most of this once.

I can find absolutely nothing that substantiates anything you claim here. Patton had it right when he said the Russians were a threat to Europe.


I wish you would learn about the battles on the Western Front. If it hadn't been for the aid the US was giving Russia, they would have lost the Western Front.

Stalin had is forces staged to enter Manchuria, but he was stalling. Once the first atomic bomb was dropped, he had no choice but to use his forces against the Japanese in Manchuria. He knew if Japan surrendered first, he would be cut out of the deal of receiving new territory.

History has proven Patton wrong. Were were always told the Soviets at any time could come thundering through the Fulda Gap. History reveals they had no such intentions. Patton was brilliant sometimes, but he never ever faced the huge numbers of Germans like the Soviets did.

 

[Conan]

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During World War II, major Allied leaders—specifically U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill—explicitly stated that keeping the Soviet Union in the fight was a vital strategic necessity

Why the Allies Wanted to Keep the Soviets Fighting

Preventing a One-Front War: Both FDR and Churchill feared that if the Soviet Union collapsed under the German blitzkrieg (Operation Barbarossa), the entire, undefeated weight of the German military machine would turn exclusively toward Britain and the Atlantic

The Grand Alliance Strategy: Leaders of the Western Allies recognized that Russia was "the key to breaking German land power," leading them to funnel massive amounts of military and industrial aid through programs like Lend-Lease to the Eastern Front and perilous Arctic convoys

As TGNR notes, “FDR and Churchill understood it was vital to keep the Soviets in the war, lest they face the entirety of the German war machine themselves