BORN DEAD

You make my point! And yes I am a pastor. The point is that we can do those things IF the HS is dwelling in us. So Who causes us to do the impossible? God. So it is with the other commands that are impossible with man. Only through the working of the HS can man obey the commands that are impossible for him to do on his own. That is the teaching of the Bible and that, my young padawan, is Calvinism.

 

Just so we are all on the same page. Here is the entry for the Hebrew word translated dead,death,etc. found in the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament:

"mût may refer to death by natural causes or to violent death. The latter may be as a penalty or otherwise. The root is not limited to the death of humans although it is used predominantly that way.

This is a universally used Semitic root for dying and death. The Canaanites employed it as the name of the god of death and the netherworld, Mot (cf. ANET, pp. 138-42). In Hebrew it is occasionally used metaphorically as when Job speaks of the death of wisdom (Job 12:2). But the literal demise of the body in death is usually in view. Ezekiel reminds us that God has no pleasure in the death of men, for his purpose was and is that they live (Ezek 18:32). The normative OT teaching about death is presented in Gen 3:3, where God warns Adam and Eve that death is the result of rebellion against his commands. Since God's purpose for our first parents was never ending life, the introduction of death was an undesirable but a necessary result of disobedience. The physical corruption of the human body and the consequent suffering and pain brought about by the Fall were only the obvious symptoms of death. Death is the consequence and the punishment of sin. It originated with sin. A grand theme of the OT is God's holiness, which separates him from all that is not in harmony with his character, Death, then, in the OT means ultimate separation from God due to sin. And sin is any rebellion or lack of conformity to his holy will. All men then, in a sense, are what the Hebrews would call b®nê m¹wet "sons of death"; that is, they deserve to die because they are sinners. This and a related term (°îsh m¹wet "man of death") are used (Psa 79:11; Psa 102:20 [H21]) of the people of god in captivity who must look to him for deliverance from impending doom."


Notice, please that the word carries a wide array of meanings and only one aspect of it involves separation. It is an aspect, but only one. So, we can't limit the meaning of death to JUST separation.

 

Also notice, in the above definition, that the primary physical meaning involved the "demise of the body." No hint of "separation of soul from body" is found in the generic meaning of death. That is a theological idea brought back into the normal meaning from the idea of separation from God.

 

So your pt is a no pt. God tells us to be like Him and enables us. And what is a padawan?

 

If the normal meaning of the Hebrew word for "death" carries the idea of the demise of the body, then the normal ideal of spiritual death would be the demise of the spirit. It would have the same characteristics of physical death, just on a spiritual plane. Which is what we Calvinists have been saying all along.

 

Great, so when Adam and Eve fell their spirit died? Or their spiritual spirit died? What happen according to the Bible on that day? I don't see the demise of either according to your veiw!

Let me add I don't care what man says or webster I am going to take the Bible's definition for dead.

 

The Greek word for "dead" found in the New Testament is the word necros. Here are a few lexical entries for this word:

Friberg:
nekros, a,, o,n dead; (1) of persons; (a) literally; (i) of human beings and animals no longer physically alive dead, lifeless, deceased (AC 28.6; JA 2.26a); (ii) substantivally o` n. dead person (LU 7.15); oi` nekroi, the dead, dead people (MK 12.26); (b) figuratively; (i) of persons unable to respond to God because of moral badness or spiritual alienation dead, powerless (EP 2.1, 5); (ii) of persons regarded as dead because of separation dead (LU 15.24, 32); (iii) of persons no longer under the control of something dead to (RO 6.11); (2) of things; literally lifeless (e.g. idols); figuratively, of what is of no benefit morally or spiritually utterly useless, completely ineffective (HE 6.1; JA 2.26b)

United Bible Society:
nekros , a, , o,n dead, lifeless ( o` nÅ a dead person, corpse; evpi. nÅ in the case of dead persons or at death He 9.17); useless, ineffective

Liddell-Scott:
nekros( a,( o,n, dead, Pind.:-Comp. &o,teroj Anth. II usually as Subst. o`, = ne,kuj, a dead body, corpse, Hom., etc.:-in pl. the dead, as dwellers in the nether world, Od.; tou.j e`autw/n n. their own dead, of those killed in battle, Thuc.

Thayers (a lot of the Hebrew won't copy right):
nekros, nekra,, nekro,n (akin to the Latin neco, nex (from a root signifying `to disappear' etc.; cf. Curtius, sec. 93; Fick i., p. 123; Vanicek, p. 422f)), the Septuagint chiefly for tme; dead, i. e.:

1. properly, a. one that has breathed his last, lifeless: Matt. 28:4; Mark 9:26; Luke 7:15; Acts 5:10; 20:9; 28:6; Heb. 11:35; Rev. 1:17; evpi, nekroi/j, if men are dead (where death has occurred (see evpi,, Buttmann, 2 a. e., p. 233a at the end)), Heb. 9:17; evgei,rein nekrou,j, Matt. 10:8; 11:5; Luke 7:22; hyperbolically and proleptically equivalent to as if already dead, sure to die, destined inevitably to die: to, sw/ma, Rom. 8:10 (to, sw/ma and to, swma,tion fu,sei nekro,n, Epictetus diss. 3, 10, 15 and 3, 22, 41; in which sense Luther called the human body, although alive, einen alten Madensack (cf. Shakespeare's "thou worms-meat!")); said of the body of a dead man (so in Homer often; for hl'ben> a corpse Deut. 28:26; Isa. 26:19; Jer. 7:33; 9:22; 19:7): meta, tw/n nekrw/n, among the dead, i. e. the buried, Luke 24:5; qa,yai tou,j nekrou,j, Matt. 8:22; Luke 9:60; ovste,a nekrw/n, Matt. 23:27; of the corpse of a murdered man, ai-ma w`j nekrou/, Rev. 16:3 (for gWrh', Ezek. 37:9; for ll'x',thrust through, slain, Ezek. 9:7; 11:6). b. deceased, departed, one whose soul is in Hades: Rev. 1:18; 2:8; nekro,j h=n, was like one dead, as good as dead, Luke 15:24,32; plural, 1 Cor. 15:29; Rev. 14:13; evn Cristw/|, dead Christians (see evn, I. 6 b., p. 211b), 1 Thess. 4:16; very often oi` nekroi, and nekroi, (without the article; see Winer's Grammar, p. 123 (117) and cf. Buttmann, 89 (78) note) are used of the assembly of the dead (see avna,stasij, 2 and evgei,rw, 2): 1 Pet. 4:6; Rev. 20:5,12f; ti,j avpo, tw/n nekrw/n, one (returning) from the dead, the world of spirits, Luke 16:30; evk nekrw/n, from the dead, occurs times too many to count (see avna,stasij, avni,sthmi, evgeriw): avna,gein tina evk nekrw/n, Rom. 10:7; Heb. 13:20; zwh, evk nekrw/n, life springing forth from death, i. e. the return of the dead to life (see evk, I. 5), Rom. 11:15; prwto,tokoj evk tw/n nekrw/n who was the first that returned to life from among the dead, Col. 1:18; also prwto,tokoj tw/n nekrw/n Rev. 1:5; zowpoi,ein tou,j nekrou,j Rom. 4:17; evgei,rein tina avpo, tw/n nekrw/n, to rouse one to quit (the assembly of) the dead, Matt. 14:2; 27:64; 28:7; kri,nein zw/ntaj kai, nekrou,j, 2 Tim. 4:1; 1 Pet. 4:5; krith,j zw,ntwn kai, nekrw/n, Acts 10:42; nekrw/n kai, zw,ntwn kurieu,ein, Rom. 14:9. c. destitute of life, without life, inanimate (equivalent to a;yucoj): to, sw/ma cwri,j pneu,matoj nekro,n evstin, James 2:26; ouvk evstin (o`) Qeo,j nekrw/n avlla, zw,ntwn, God is the guardian God not of the dead but of the living, Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38.

2. tropically: a. (spiritually dead, i. e.) "destitute of a life that recognizes and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins; inactive as respects doing right": John 5:25; Rom. 6:13; Eph. 5:14; Rev. 3:1; with toi/j paraptw,masin (the dative of cause (cf. Winer's Grammar, 412 (384f))) added, Eph. 2:1,5; evn (but T Tr WH omit evn) toi/j paraptoij Col. 2:13; in the pointed saying a;fej tou,j nekrou,j qa,yai tou,j e`autw/n nekrou,j, leave those who are indifferent to the salvation offered them in the gospel, to bury thee bodies of their own dead, Matt. 8:22; Luke 9:60. b. universally, destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative: th/| a`marti,a, unaffected by the desire to sin (cf. Winer's Grammar, 210 (199); Buttmann, sec. 133, 12), Rom. 6:11; of things: a`marti,a, Rom. 7:8; pi,stij, James 2:17,20 (R G), 26; e;rga, powerless and fruitless (see e;rgon, 3, p. 248b bottom), Heb. 6:1; 9:14. (Cf. qnhto,j, at the end)

In Thayers, pay special attention to the second definition, because that touches on the spiritual aspects of death. Notice a popular usage of the word death in a metaphorical sense refers to something that is "useless." Also, notice that in the normal usage of the word, separation of body and soul is not even mentioned.

 

Hey Tim, these lexicons take the Biblical meaning of the word. They are not making this up. Show me the verse that says "death means separation."

When Adam and Eve sinned they experiences spiritual death. One aspect of that was that they were separated from God. But that is only one aspect of it. The demise of their spiritual condition is precisely what Total Depravity describes. In the same way that a body is devoid of life and response to physical impulses, a spiritually dead person is devoid of spiritual life and response to spiritual impulses. This is why the biblical authors used the word "dead" to describe us. They figured it was an obvious metaphor.

 

Even if you want to define spiritual death as separation from God (which death in any form is separation from something, even if the something is life), fine. However, a slave is beholden to his master and doesn't dare disobey him. The one who sins is a slave to sin. If a slave to sin, how do you respond to Christ who is not your master? You would be guilty of rebellion against your legitimate master. Dead in sin and a slave to sin. There is no way out.

Only one that is redeemed from the slaveholder can be released from the slaveholder. That is something applied by God to us. He redeems us and makes us alive.

 

My point is that regeneration is necessary before a spiritually dead person can obey the command of God. You can't tell that from my statements? You said God never issues a command that we can't keep. I showed you a command that we can never keep on our own. You said with the indwelling Spirit we can keep it. I said that that was my point. It takes a miracle of the Spirit for us to obey God's commands.


And a padawan is a Jedi student. Sorry for the reference you didn't get!

 

Let me add I don't care what man says or webster I am going to take the Bible's definition for dead. [/qb][/QUOTE]Hey Tim, these lexicons take the Biblical meaning of the word. They are not making this up. Show me the verse that says "death means separation."

When Adam and Eve sinned they experiences spiritual death. One aspect of that was that they were separated from God. But that is only one aspect of it. The demise of their spiritual condition is precisely what Total Depravity describes. In the same way that a body is devoid of life and response to physical impulses, a spiritually dead person is devoid of spiritual life and response to spiritual impulses. This is why the biblical authors used the word "dead" to describe us. They figured it was an obvious metaphor. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Okay, now we are getting somewhere. But you didn’t answer my question what is a padawan. Tried looking it up. Is is a cavlinist term?
Anyways back to what you said. I don’t have a problem with what your saying. Said very well I think. I can say that this is the way I believe also. Spiritual separation or death. Unable to respond to spiritual things. It was spiritual death that happened on the day they ate. Is the not the death Paul spoke of in Eph 2:1 “dead in sins and trespasses.”
But on that day we don’t have Adam and Eve unable to respond favorably to God but we do find them separated. Now unless God is a lair and He did say that “on that day you shall surely die.” And we find again that they could respond but where separated, cast from the garden. What then are we too conclude that spiritual death is and isn’t?
John 6:44, 64 simply say that God must draw the sinner (vs 44) and unless He gives them ability they can not come (vs 65). What these two verses do not establish is who in fact God draws or gives ability. It eliminates all who do come from boasting that they did it all without the work of God, but it leaves open the possibility that God may do a work in each heart so that all are drawn and given the ability. I think John 1:12-13 answers in a different way the same questions – It is God’s will and work on the heart, but this passage does not establish this work as limited to a select group (some it is God’s will for them to be born and others it is not His will). Actually, John 1:9 and John 12:32 seem to tell us that all men are actually drawn and all are given light. Certainly some resist this drawing and reject this light, but the matter of ability is taken care of by God.

 

My point is that regeneration is necessary before a spiritually dead person can obey the command of God. You can't tell that from my statements? You said God never issues a command that we can't keep. I showed you a command that we can never keep on our own. You said with the indwelling Spirit we can keep it. I said that that was my point. It takes a miracle of the Spirit for us to obey God's commands.


And a padawan is a Jedi student. Sorry for the reference you didn't get! </font>[/QUOTE]Believe it or not I never watch Star Wars. Have said that someday I will set down and watch the whole series of them. Thats fine not insulted by that.

 

My point about the story of Adam and Eve has always been that it doesn't tell us everything. I could just as easily say that they responded to God because God regenerated them the instant He pursued them. I don't make a big deal over it because the Bible doesn't go into that detail.

Here's where I am going to disagree with you.

John 6:36-37 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

In this passage, who comes to Jesus? The answer is "all that the Father give me." In fact the ones that the Father gives to Jesus definitely will come and those who don't come weren't given by the Father. This is Jesus' reasoning to the Pharisees as to why they didn't believe.

John 6:43-45 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Jesus told them not to complain because no one is able to come to the Father unless He draws them. You agree up to that point. But the verse goes on and says, "and I will raise him up at the last day." Who will Jesus raise up? The ones that the Father drew. The ones the Father draws come to Him and are raised up. If someone isn't raised up at the last day, it is because they did not come to the Son. If they did not come to the Son, it is because they were not drawn by the Father.

John 6:64-65 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Jesus tells them that some of them do not believe. For this reason He told them that no one had the ability to come to Him (believe) unless it had been granted (given) by the Father.

I think it does limit.

Obviously, it is at least limited to "as many as received Him." Everyone believes that. Who are those who received Him? Those who were born of the will of God.

As far as John 1:9 and John 12:32, it does say that some enlightening and some drawing takes place to all men. Is this the same as the drawing in John 6? Either Jesus didn't really mean what He said in John 6, or it is a different kind of drawing. Or, John, in his gospel, is emphasizing that Jesus is not just for Jews, but for all men, as in Gentiles as well.

 

Helen, I disagree with you on the doctrine of election but agree with you 100% on the above.

By the way i am not a Calvinist. He just happened to be correct about certain thing, but not all.

Mohler, president of the Southern [Baptist] Seminary had a good article on the fate of children who die. He also believes in the doctrine of election. If I can find the article I will send it to you.

 

My point about the story of Adam and Eve has always been that it doesn't tell us everything. I could just as easily say that they responded to God because God regenerated them the instant He pursued them. I don't make a big deal over it because the Bible doesn't go into that detail.</font>[/QUOTE]TIMTOOLMAN:
You could say that but would it be even reasonable to assume such a thing. Doesn't the bible tell us that without the shedding of blood there is no remisssion of sins? At the very least God did not kill any animals till after He sought them and conversed with them and then went and killed animals for clothing. The system of goats and rams had not even been set up yet. Yes you could say that to escape, but would it be honest?
I have a very bad feeling about trivilizing any of scripture or ignoring it. I believe it does show for a fact that the death God was talking about was spiritual. That is what died on that day.

Here's where I am going to disagree with you.

John 6:36-37 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

In this passage, who comes to Jesus? The answer is "all that the Father give me." In fact the ones that the Father gives to Jesus definitely will come and those who don't come weren't given by the Father. This is Jesus' reasoning to the Pharisees as to why they didn't believe.

John 6:43-45 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Jesus told them not to complain because no one is able to come to the Father unless He draws them. You agree up to that point. But the verse goes on and says, "and I will raise him up at the last day." Who will Jesus raise up? The ones that the Father drew. The ones the Father draws come to Him and are raised up. If someone isn't raised up at the last day, it is because they did not come to the Son. If they did not come to the Son, it is because they were not drawn by the Father.

John 6:64-65 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Jesus tells them that some of them do not believe. For this reason He told them that no one had the ability to come to Him (believe) unless it had been granted (given) by the Father.

I think it does limit.

Obviously, it is at least limited to "as many as received Him." Everyone believes that. Who are those who received Him? Those who were born of the will of God.

As far as John 1:9 and John 12:32, it does say that some enlightening and some drawing takes place to all men. Is this the same as the drawing in John 6? Either Jesus didn't really mean what He said in John 6, or it is a different kind of drawing. Or, John, in his gospel, is emphasizing that Jesus is not just for Jews, but for all men, as in Gentiles as well. [/QB][/QUOTE]
This has been explained over and over too. In Jn 6:40 it states very clearly.
And this is the will of Him that sent me, that every one which seeth the son, AND BELIEVETH ON HIM may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Seems there is that little phrase here that says AND....believeth on Him. Sorry this still shows that He calls all and all that believe the fAther will indeed give to the son and none will be lost.

 

We do not argue that they have to believe. Only those who believe, and everyone who believes, will be saved. But Jesus had just explained that the reason the Pharisees didn't believe was because God had not given them to the Son.

Verse 37 would have been a perfect time to explain the unbelief of the Pharisees in verse 36 in terms of man's free will. Instead, Jesus chose to explain their unbelief in terms of the Father's not giving them to Him.