Born of God

[mark1]

Sin as a transgression of the law is only one definition as given in 1John 3:4
"Missing the mark" is another definition as described in Romans 3:23--We miss the mark of God's glory and his holiness when we sin. We fall short of it.

However we sin because we have a sin nature also--an iherited nature that has been passed down from Adam--an Adamic nature.
Romans 5:12,19

Have you ever considered the story of Coniah in Jer.22?
Jeremiah 22:28-30 Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?
29 O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.
30 Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.

What was one of the primary reasons for the virgin birth? Both Mary and Joseph were of the line of Judah, as their respective geneologies show. Mary's geneology is given in Luke, and Joseph's in Matthew. Jesus had to be virgin born, because if he wasn't he would have inherited not only a sin nature, but as the Lord says he would have descended from a line of David that would have been cursed.

Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.
--Joseph was a direct descendent from this line.
The virgin birth was the only answer.

The virgin birth was the only answer for another reason; it was the only way that Christ could avoid a sin nature. The sin nature is inherited. Once the egg is impregnated with the sperm that is where life begins. And that is where the sin nature begins--as soon as that person has a living soul--right then and there. It is "inherited." It is passed down through the man. It was the man that was cursed, and through the man the sin would be passed down from generation to generation. It is called the "seed' of the man.

This has nothing to do with it. When does life begin? You sound like you are trying to make an argument for abortion.

You influence others around you. You especially influence your children. You will stand before God on how you raised your children, what kind of life you gave them--was it a Godly upbringing? They were brought into this world with a sin nature passed on by you. Were you able to lead them to the Lord so that they might be born into God's family? That is your responsiblity as a parent. Yes, you will stand before God on the account of others--especially your children.

And if I do, will you believe?

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This scripture says that death was passed on all men. You don't believe for one minute that Adam had the power to do that do you?

Kindly leave BroBob out of this discussion. He has nothing to do with it. Neither was he banned because of a similar discussion. He was banned because it is three strikes and you are out.
He had been warned.
He had been suspended.
He was been banned.
And all for the same reasons. That is the end of that discussion. Leave it there (RE: BroBob, that is).

You give examples where God for some reason passed a judgement upon an individual, not all of mankind.

Your scripture only tells of death being passed upon all mankind, but who had the power to pass that death, Adam or God. It was because of "one man", but that does not say that one man did the "passing". Do you believe little children are going to hell, and if not, why?

Jesus could not be born of Joseph, because God, not Adam, passed a judgement on that bloodline, for a specific purpose, not eternal death.

So, you either accept scripture or you deny it.

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Did Cain and Abel bear the iniquity of Adam, or did God because of Adam's sin, pass death upon Cain and Abel?

Also, how can a soul sin that is already dead?

Did Adam have the power to pass death upon all mankind?

Who formed you, God or Adam?

Deu 32:18Of the Rock [that] begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

Don't your sins count for nothing.

Rom 6:23For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I will not be responsible for my children's sins, when sin is "imputed", for they will be of age then. If I suffer over anyone else's doings, it will be in this life, for in life eternal, I will not answer for anyone's sin. Period.

Any contamination I may do, I will suffer for it in this life, and it is "my wrong" that I suffer for. If someone commits sin because I tell them to, I will suffer for telling them to do it, but they will suffer for the sin of committing it.

When you receive a "blood" tranfusion, do you then have the "sin" of the donor???

Why did God say, I give you your breath and you live, I take it and you die. Why did He not say, I take your blood and you die, being the blood is the life of the body?

When the mortician removes all your blood, does he remove all your sin also?

When God takes your breath, is there sin still in the body, the blood is there?

You take notice all those examples you give, even when God told Abraham, his seed shall be blessed. Who was going to be doing the "blessing", Abraham or God?

Is it against BB rules to mention Bro Bob's name? Just want to make sure I follow the rules of BB.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Mark1: Is it against BB rules to mention Bro Bob's name? Just want to make sure I follow the rules of BB.

HP: Interesting question. Very interesting.

 

[steaver]

Now all that was "passed" came from God, not Adam. It happened because Adam sinned, but Adam had no power over mankind, God does. jeepers!!!

Ro 5:12; Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The wages of sin is death. How is it babies die having never committed an act of sin of their own?

Why is a baby's life taken if the baby had no sin curse passed to it from the seed of Adam? (seed may be a better way of putting it, although I still see the blood of man cursed and the blood of Christ pure)

The questions get tough around here Mark and it is how sound doctrine verses error is decided. Can you give answer?

:jesus:

 

[mark1]

Ro 5:12; Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The wages of sin is death. How is it babies die having never committed an act of sin of their own?

Why is a baby's life taken if the baby had no sin curse passed to it from the seed of Adam? (seed may be a better way of putting it, although I still see the blood of man cursed and the blood of Christ pure)

The questions get tough around here Mark and it is how sound doctrine verses error is decided. Can you give answer?

:jesus:

Are you smart enough to answer if Adam passed a "still born" upon a baby?

Death comes in many forms because Adam sinned, but Adam does not have the power to take your breath.

Fear not man, who can destroy the body. Adam, can't do that.

You better believe the questions are tough and you are not answering them. Does Adam take your breath. How come God said He was the one who "formed" you. It was not Adam, for sure. Adam brought death, God passed it unto all mankind. The only reason Adam brought death is because "God" said if you eat you shall surely die. You think Adam, just brought death on his own. Think man! God said if you eat you shall die.

Is your life in the hands of Adam, or God??????????

If God had not said, "you shall surely die", would Adam have died???????????????

 

[steaver]

You better believe the questions are tough and you are not answering them.

Maybe if I ask my question in a different way you might attempt an answer.

Why does God bring death upon a baby who never committed a sin?

Because Adam sinned? This would go against your position that a baby cannot be held accountable for another's sin.

What is you answer? Why does the baby die having not committed any sin?

If you answer because of Adam's sin then the baby is held accountable for Adam's sin. You have yourself in a quandary.

 

[steaver]

Is your life in the hands of Adam, or God??????????

i don't what this has to do with the topic. No one ever proposed that Adam has any power to give life or take life. We are discussing the curse of sin and how the curse is passed down.

 

[mark1]

Maybe if I ask my question in a different way you might attempt an answer.

Why does God bring death upon a baby who never committed a sin?

Because Adam sinned? This would go against your position that a baby cannot be held accountable for another's sin.

What is you answer? Why does the baby die having not committed any sin?

If you answer because of Adam's sin then the baby is held accountable for Adam's sin. You have yourself in a quandary.

I am not in a quandary, you just need to broaden your mind somewhat.

I have stated its because Adam sinned, but Adam did not pass death upon the rest of us, God appointed it unto us, because of Adam's sin.

If God had not appointed death unto us, I don't care how many times Adam sinned, that would of been the end of it. God said I have formed you in your mother's womb. Get it?

You now have changed to "seed" instead of "blood", since DHK has returned and called it "seed".

 

[mark1]

i don't what this has to do with the topic. No one ever proposed that Adam has any power to give life or take life. We are discussing the curse of sin and how the curse is passed down.

What is the curse of sin and who passes that curse upon mankind?:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

What is the curse of sin and who passes that curse upon mankind?:thumbs:

Going by your definition:
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
--Sin is in direct relation to the law.

Now:
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
--The law condemns. It condemns all who cannot keep all of it from life unto death. One sin during one's lifetime is enough to condemn one. The truth is, we sin every day, and therefore are cursed by the law.

However:
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
--Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law. This relates to our salvation only. He died for our sins. He hath redeed us who beleive in him, and hath forgiven our sins. We have redemption, in that we have salvation. But this does not now refer to our bodies, at least not yet.

Romans 8:22-23 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
--We wait for the redemption of our bodies. They have not yet been redeemed. The suffer, die, decay, get old, suffer sickness, deteriorate, etc. The curse of death still remains. It remains on us, and it remains on this earth, and it will not be totally lifted until the Lord comes again and sets up His Kingdom.
--Note: "the whole creation groans and travails in pain until now." That refers to the entire world. The sin of Adam affected the entire universe. Animals could no longer live in harmony one with another, as they had before. The earth started bringing forth thistles, and mosquitoes problably started being parasitic, drawing out people's blood. The curse OF GOD UPON MAN began all of this. It was a result of Adam's disobedience. His death was both physical and spiritual. The nature of the death, because of sin, was passed from generation to generation. No man would live forever; though it would be conceivable that Adam and Eve could have, had they not eaten of the fruit of that tree. But they made the wrong choice. Their choice affected the rest of the generations of the world.

Because Adam sinned, we all inherit a sin nature from Adam. This is what the Bible teaches. This is what the Fall is all about. Go back and read Genesis 3. "In Adam's Fall, we sinned all." McGuffey's reader's teaches its children.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

 

[mark1]

Going by your definition:
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
--Sin is in direct relation to the law.

Now:
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
--The law condemns. It condemns all who cannot keep all of it from life unto death. One sin during one's lifetime is enough to condemn one. The truth is, we sin every day, and therefore are cursed by the law.

However:
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
--Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law. This relates to our salvation only. He died for our sins. He hath redeed us who beleive in him, and hath forgiven our sins. We have redemption, in that we have salvation. But this does not now refer to our bodies, at least not yet.

Romans 8:22-23 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
--We wait for the redemption of our bodies. They have not yet been redeemed. The suffer, die, decay, get old, suffer sickness, deteriorate, etc. The curse of death still remains. It remains on us, and it remains on this earth, and it will not be totally lifted until the Lord comes again and sets up His Kingdom.
--Note: "the whole creation groans and travails in pain until now." That refers to the entire world. The sin of Adam affected the entire universe. Animals could no longer live in harmony one with another, as they had before. The earth started bringing forth thistles, and mosquitoes problably started being parasitic, drawing out people's blood. The curse OF GOD UPON MAN began all of this. It was a result of Adam's disobedience. His death was both physical and spiritual. The nature of the death, because of sin, was passed from generation to generation. No man would live forever; though it would be conceivable that Adam and Eve could have, had they not eaten of the fruit of that tree. But they made the wrong choice. Their choice affected the rest of the generations of the world.

Because Adam sinned, we all inherit a sin nature from Adam. This is what the Bible teaches. This is what the Fall is all about. Go back and read Genesis 3. "In Adam's Fall, we sinned all." McGuffey's reader's teaches its children.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Are you sure you know which "death" you are speaking of?

This is the natural death, that God appointed unto "all" men, that is why babies die.
Hbr 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This is the second death and without repentance, man will be cast into a LoF.
Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Adam was not or is not God. Only God has control over life or death.

Rom 14:7
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Are you really saying that God does not have the control, whether we live or whether we die??????

 

[steaver]

I have stated its because Adam sinned, but Adam did not pass death upon the rest of us, God appointed it unto us, because of Adam's sin.

You are saying babies are appointed by God to die because of Adam's sin. Yet you post this scripture and state that a person is not responsible for another's sin...

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Which way do you want it Mark?

Babies die every day. Babies who have not committed any act of sin. You say God is killing them because Adam sinned?

I say they die because they have inherited the curse through the seed or blood of Adam.

You now have changed to "seed" instead of "blood", since DHK has returned and called it "seed".

steaver; (seed may be a better way of putting it, although I still see the blood of man cursed and the blood of Christ pure)

It is not a "change". It is an expansion.

 

[mark1]

You are saying babies are appointed by God to die because of Adam's sin. Yet you post this scripture and state that a person is not responsible for another's sin...

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Which way do you want it Mark?

Babies die every day. Babies who have not committed any act of sin. You say God is killing them because Adam sinned?

I say they die because they have inherited the curse through the seed or blood of Adam.





It is not a "change". It is an expansion.

You need to get your ducks in a row there Steaver!

There is a natural death and there is a second death.

Babies don't have sin, but the natural death is upon them and the second death comes when they do sin. The soul that sinneth shall die, remember?

You can escape the second death, after it been pronounced upon you by, repenting and being born again.

There is no escape from the natural death, for it is an appointment of God. Not Adam!

You don't believe it was God who pronounced the appointment of death upon mankind????

You don't believe it is God, who gives us our breath and we live, He takes it and we die????

You must believe Adam is God!


expansion, greaaaat!!!

 

[steaver]

You need to get your ducks in a row there Steaver!

There is a natural death and there is a second death.

Very good. Now stay on the topic of natural death for i have said nothing about the second death.

Babies don't have sin, but the natural death is upon them and the second death comes when they do sin.

This is false. The second death is the lake of fire. Rev 20:14; And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

As for the "natural death"....

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

DEATH BY SIN.

You have yet to deal with this passage. It is not the 'second death by sin', it is the physical death BY SIN and it is PASSED upon all.

There is no escape from the natural death, for it is an appointment of God. Not Adam!

Very good. Why has God appointed a baby to die the death by sin? If the baby did not commit an act of sin, then the baby is either being held accountable for Adam's sin (something you say God does not do) or death by sin has been passed unto the baby. Call it an appointment if you like, but it changes nothing, passed or appointed works either way.

Why do babies suffer the death by sin when they have not committed any act of sin?

 

[mark1]

Very good. Now stay on the topic of natural death for i have said nothing about the second death.



This is false. The second death is the lake of fire. Rev 20:14; And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

As for the "natural death"....

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

DEATH BY SIN.

You have yet to deal with this passage. It is not the 'second death by sin', it is the physical death BY SIN and it is PASSED upon all.



Very good. Why has God appointed a baby to die the death by sin? If the baby did not commit an act of sin, then the baby is either being held accountable for Adam's sin (something you say God does not do) or death by sin has been passed unto the baby. Call it an appointment if you like, but it changes nothing, passed or appointed works either way.

Why do babies suffer the death by sin when they have not committed any act of sin?

First of all, when we sin, the second death is pronounced upon us and if we do not receive the blood of the Lamb, we will stand before God and be cast into the LoF. We however can escape that death, through believe in Christ.

The natural death, was pronounced upon Adam by "GOD". and be cause Adam sinned, God gave the appointmentof death upon "ALL" mankind, including babies.

Adam, did not pass anything, he is the one who sinned. God is the one who made the appointement of death upon all mankind, which is the natural death and has nothing to do with "wages of sin is death". That passage and the others are talking of the second death.

Again, you are making Adam God, as if he had the power to send death upon all mankind.

Life and death, belong to God and no one else.


It is because of Adam's sin, that God appointed unto man once to die. Adam did not do it. He did not have the power to do it.

Rom 14:8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Hbr 9:27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


If your sins did not bring the second death upon you, why did you need the blood of Christ? It sure is not going to save you from the natural death. Why does it say "after death" the judgement, or second death.

Is your life in the hands of Adam, or God. Please answer.

Deu 6:2That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

Who prolongs or shortens anyone's life. Is it the seed of Adam???????

 

[steaver]

The natural death, was pronounced upon Adam by "GOD". and be cause Adam sinned, God gave the appointmentof death upon "ALL" mankind, including babies.

Then you are saying babies die because Adam sinned. This is holding babies accountable or punishing them because of another's sin. I thought you did not believe in this.

 

[steaver]

First of all, when we sin, the second death is pronounced upon us and if we do not receive the blood of the Lamb, we will stand before God and be cast into the LoF. We however can escape that death, through believe in Christ.

Both the natural death and the second death is pronounced in the curse. It only took the act of Adam's sin for this curse to enter the world. God pronounced the curse and God provided the cure.

 

[mark1]

Both the natural death and the second death is pronounced in the curse. It only took the act of Adam's sin for this curse to enter the world. God pronounced the curse and God provided the cure.

What you know, the man has had his eyes annointed with eye salve, finally. He has seen the light, that God put a curse on "all" mankind. What a hard head. :thumbs:

Of course, we could start a whole new debate, when these deaths take place in a man.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I agree with the first part, not sure what you mean by the "but" part. I know my weaknesses and would not ever say never again. However, I have grown stronger in the Lord since my transgression and have been able to resist this particular transgression in deed. Although my thoughts on occassion have failed my Lord.

GE:
Certainly! But certainly it's not our lifestyle! Certainly we hate that and any other sin in us for as long as we shall live; we combat it, -- and by the grace of God we DO enjoy victory through Jesus Christ over whichever sin! I know that fall again and again, even were it just in my heart. But I also know The Love Of Christ that is stronger than any adverse tendencies.

Every day I pray a hundred times, Lord, put my thoughts straight; put them back on course. Instantaneously, constantly, but never, what I really will; it happens, but I don't want to do it --- Paul knew the same battle -- Romans 6, 7777, 8

 

[DHK]

There is a natural death and there is a second death.

That is too simplistic a view. There are more than just two deaths. Death means separation. Eternal death is separation from God eternally. Natural or physical death is separation of the spirit from the body.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What does the Bible say about death?
1.There is a natural or physical death (James 2:26)
2. There is a spiritual death for unbelievers (Eph.2:1)

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--These believers, before they were saved were dead or separated from God. They were made alive by the Holy Spirit. All unbelievers are spiritually dead.

3. There is a spiritual death for believers (Psa. 66:18

Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
--Sin separates the believer from God. He doesn’t lose his salvation, only his fellowship. Nevertheless he is still separated from God.
Death is separation.
A believer can be spiritually dead and will be until he confesses his sin (1John 1:9), and gets right with God. However his salvation will never be in question.

4. There is eternal death (Rom. 6:23)

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--Here eternal death is contrasted to eternal life. This is not yet speaking of the Second Death or the L of F which is yet to come. This is present tense. When an unsaved person dies now they have eternal death, or will be separated from God for all eternity. That is a promise from God

5. There is the Second Death (Rev. 20:10-15)
--This is God’s final sentence on all unsaved when they will all be cast into the Lake of Fire. It is the final pronouncement; the final judgment.

In each and every case death means separation. It is separation from God.

Babies don't have sin, but the natural death is upon them and the second death comes when they do sin. The soul that sinneth shall die, remember?

Again (see above); your approach is too simplistic. They may not have sinned deliberately, but they do have a sin nature inherited by Adam. And before you say it, it was God that set that process in motion as a consequence of Adam’s sin. Of course Adam has no power. So let’s not make any foolish statements about “Adam’s power” that no one but you have made.
The sin nature is inherited, and it is inherited specifically through the man. “As by one man sinned, and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.”

Here are some facts you need to consider
First: Does one sin because he is a sinner, or
Is one a sinner because he sins?

The answer to those questions are crucial. If you deny the first (as it seems that you do), you fall into the heresy of pelagianism. You need to read your American church history, particularly that of “New England Theology.” It began about the time of Jonathan Edward Jr. and climaxed with famed Evangelist Finney, who became the president of Oberlin College.

Finney did not believe in a sin nature. He believed that one became a sinner only if he sinned. Thus sinless perfection was attainable. It was also possible with such a theology to attain a perfect community of saints, since one didn’t have to sin, and no had the sin nature.

Finney was a heretic. And yet it was from Finney that we get our long protracted invitations, the “mourner’s bench,” etc. Finney saw nothing miraculous or supernatural in a revival. It was all philosophical. Therefore he would devise any means possible to get the sinner to the altar. The ends justified the means.
Your seemingly denial of the sin nature is a branch of Unitarianism, which New England Theology is, and is Pelagianism, an ancient heresy. Study your own American church history and find out where you stand.

You can escape the second death, after it been pronounced upon you by, repenting and being born again.

You can also become born into the family of God, which formerly you were not a part of. Thus the command: You must be born again.

There is no escape from the natural death, for it is an appointment of God. Not Adam!

There is no escape from spiritual death, from the Adamic sin nature either.

You don't believe it was God who pronounced the appointment of death upon mankind????

God has pronounced both spiritual and physical death upon all men. You must be born again.

 

[mark1]

Quote:
There is a natural death and there is a second death.


DHK:That is too simplistic a view. There are more than just two deaths. Death means separation. Eternal death is separation from God eternally. Natural or physical death is separation of the spirit from the body.

Yes, there are more than just two deaths, but two is all we are talking about.

Simplistic? Why, because you can understand it?

DHK; James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What does the Bible say about death?
1.There is a natural or physical death (James 2:26)
2. There is a spiritual death for unbelievers (Eph.2:1)

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--These believers, before they were saved were dead or separated from God. They were made alive by the Holy Spirit. All unbelievers are spiritually dead.

3. There is a spiritual death for believers (Psa. 66:18

Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
--Sin separates the believer from God. He doesn’t lose his salvation, only his fellowship. Nevertheless he is still separated from God.
Death is separation.
A believer can be spiritually dead and will be until he confesses his sin (1John 1:9), and gets right with God. However his salvation will never be in question.

4. There is eternal death (Rom. 6:23)

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--Here eternal death is contrasted to eternal life. This is not yet speaking of the Second Death or the L of F which is yet to come. This is present tense. When an unsaved person dies now they have eternal death, or will be separated from God for all eternity. That is a promise from God

5. There is the Second Death (Rev. 20:10-15)
--This is God’s final sentence on all unsaved when they will all be cast into the Lake of Fire. It is the final pronouncement; the final judgment.

In each and every case death means separation. It is separation from God.

Mark1: If you want to discuss all the different kinds of death, fine. Start a thread on it. We are discussing the spiritual death and the natural death.


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Mark1: Babies don't have sin, but the natural death is upon them and the second death comes when they do sin. The soul that sinneth shall die, remember?


DHK; Again (see above); your approach is too simplistic. They may not have sinned deliberately, but they do have a sin nature inherited by Adam. And before you say it, it was God that set that process in motion as a consequence of Adam’s sin. Of course Adam has no power. So let’s not make any foolish statements about “Adam’s power” that no one but you have made.

Call it foolish all you want, but it took several posts to get an admission, that God is in control. So, if you and I want to discuss the same thing, I will gladly comply. Soul can't die if its already dead. Why do you seem to be throwing the foolishness at me, when I said all along it was only God who had the power to pronounce death, there is nothing foolish about that at all.


The sin nature is inherited, and it is inherited specifically through the man. “As by one man sinned, and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.”

Here are some facts you need to consider
First: Does one sin because he is a sinner, or
Is one a sinner because he sins?

I do not believe infants are sinners, I believe they become sinners when they sin. Can they escape becoming sinners, if they live until the age they know God? No


The answer to those questions are crucial. If you deny the first (as it seems that you do), you fall into the heresy of pelagianism. You need to read your American church history, particularly that of “New England Theology.” It began about the time of Jonathan Edward Jr. and climaxed with famed Evangelist Finney, who became the president of Oberlin College.

Finney did not believe in a sin nature. He believed that one became a sinner only if he sinned. Thus sinless perfection was attainable. It was also possible with such a theology to attain a perfect community of saints, since one didn’t have to sin, and no had the sin nature.

Finney was a heretic. And yet it was from Finney that we get our long protracted invitations, the “mourner’s bench,” etc. Finney saw nothing miraculous or supernatural in a revival. It was all philosophical. Therefore he would devise any means possible to get the sinner to the altar. The ends justified the means.
Your seemingly denial of the sin nature is a branch of Unitarianism, which New England Theology is, and is Pelagianism, an ancient heresy. Study your own American church history and find out where you stand.

I don't care about Finney or anyone else. When you say we have a sin nature, are you saying we are spiritually dead at conception? If so and the spiritual death is pronounced at conception, then why is the natural death pronounced at the same time. In other words, when we die spiritually, why do we not die naturally at the same time. How come some live to be children, some in their 20's, 30's and even over a hundred. You tell me why, if this all came at the same time, why is the spiritual death at conception and the natural death random???

Also, I don't think you believe babies go to hell. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember you posting that. Are you saying that we can be "spiritual dead" and still go to heaven?

Simplistic?


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You can escape the second death, after it been pronounced upon you by, repenting and being born again.
You can also become born into the family of God, which formerly you were not a part of. Thus the command: You must be born again.

Now you tell me the difference in what you said here and what I said?


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There is no escape from the natural death, for it is an appointment of God. Not Adam!
There is no escape from spiritual death, from the Adamic sin nature either.

Then you must believe babies go to hell and straight to hell.


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You don't believe it was God who pronounced the appointment of death upon mankind????
God has pronounced both spiritual and physical death upon all men. You must be born again.

Again, you are posting what I been saying all along. Simplistic?




__________________
DHK

Seems you agree in many areas, but want to make it difficult to understand for the list.

As you believe the natural death can come at anytime, I also believe the spiritual death will come when you come to know to do good and do it not.

The soul that sinneth shall die.

I got more scripture on my belief, that you do not have an answer for.

I believe both the spiritual death and the natural death are pronounced upon all mankind, but as the natural death comes later in life in most cases, the spiritual death comes when you come to know God and glorify Him not as God, then the "soul that sinneth" dies that spiritual death.

How many spiritual deaths do you believe is pronounced upon mankind???

At least you do know who has the "power" to pronounce death!