Born or Fathered?

[Van]

Well, Psalms 2:7 a prophecy of Christ being resurrected from the dead,
". . . 'I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. . . ."'" -- NASB 1995 edition.
Then cited in Acts of the Apostles 13:33, ". . .that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.’ . . ." -- NASB 1995 edition.

NASB 1995 edition (less foot notes).
1 John 5:1, ". . . γεγεννηκα . . . γεννησαντα . . . γεγεννημενον . . . ," translated as, ". . . is born . . . the Father . . . born . . ."

Acts of the Apostles 13:33, ". . . γεγεννηκα . . . ," ". . . BEGOTTEN . . . ."

Yes, the NASB still uses the archaic "begotten (beget)" rather than fathered. In Acts of the Apostles 13:33 a more literal translation would be "have fathered you."

 

[Van]

Doesn't the NAS have a footnote on the verse?

Lit one who begets

Meaning literally "one who begets".

Hi Conan, thanks for your post.

Yes, the "c" footnote on 1 John 5:1 says "literally one who begets" for the use of "Father." My suggested improvement is "One fathering" rather than either "Father" or "One who begets."

 

[Conan]

Hello Van. I think it is a brilliant improvement! Thank you.

 

[Van]

Here are the alternate choices (fathered over born or begotten) in 1 John. In addition to the context (out of God) the alternate choice accepts the interpretation that John is using paternal imagery.

1Jo 2:29
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness has been fathered by Him.

1Jo 3:9
No one having been fathered by God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been fathered by God.

1Jo 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves has been fathered by God and knows God.

1Jo 5:1
"Everyone believing Jesus is the Christ has been fathered by God and everyone loving the One fathering is also loving the one fathered by Him."

1Jo 5:4
For every one fathered by God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

1Jo 5:18
We know that no one having been fathered by God sins; but He who was fathered by God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

 

[McCree79]

Even though the Greek word for "father" is not in the verse ( 1 John 5:1 )?

Please tell me how a translator who takes the Greek word "γεννάω" ( Strong's G1080 ), that means "One-begetting" / "one-generating" ( rendered in the AV, ASV, Douay-Rheims 1899, and YLT as, "him that begat" / "him who did beget" ) is being accurate when they use the English word "Father" ( Greek " πατήρ", Strong's G3982 ) where "One-begetting" / "One-generating" should be?

In other words, how exactly is using the word "father" when the Greek word for "father" isn't even there, getting " the better word to translate as being into English"?

You see no problem with what the NASB translators did?

To begat a child is to become a parent.

However I think the emphasis here suggests "born" would be better. The voice of the Greek is letting us know that God caused Jesus to be born of flesh and is the active force behind those "born of Him".

God is not passive in any of the uses of γεννάω (gennao). He is the cause of what has and is happening here. He is the active participant, not a passive father watching the active mother bring forth birth. God is bringing forth birth.

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[McCree79]

Fathered and Begotten (also begat) both refer to the same progenitor action. To say begat is correct and fathered is incorrect is without merit.

Exactly right.


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[Yeshua1]

Exactly right.


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seems that some trying to prove that only certain translations are correct and should be used alone!

 

[McCree79]

seems that some trying to prove that only certain translations are correct and should be used alone!

It seems that way. Both options provided in the OP are fine. I prefer the NASB because I think it better conveys the force of the verb in our modern English, but both options are acceptable.

*Begat vs. Fathered .....no difference so whatever.

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[Yeshua1]

It seems that way. Both options provided in the OP are fine. I prefer the NASB because I think it better conveys the force of the verb in our modern English, but both options are acceptable.

*Begat vs. Fathered .....no difference so whatever.

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The majority of the talk here on bible translations seems to be much ado about nothing!

 

[John of Japan]

double post

 

[Van]

1 John 5:4: For every one fathered by God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, sometimes when looking at a verse to resolve one issue, another issue pops up.

Here we have the odd use of "victory." Since this Greek word only appears here in scripture, its meaning cannot be discerned by looking at how the word is used elsewhere in scripture. The lexicons say it means "victory" or figuratively the means of victory. Using this alternate figurative meaning our faith becomes the means of our victory in overcoming the world. This parallels Romans 5:1 where our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand.

 

[John of Japan]

The word gennao in 1 John 5:1 is a perfect passive (gegennetai). Any lexicon (Strong's is not a lexicon) will tell you that when this verb is passive it means "born." When it is active it can mean "to father" or "to give birth." (This is simplifying.) So the NASB is being literal. The "fathered" rendering in other versions may come from the fact that the verb is a perfect tense there, but is a little bit interpretive.

 

[John of Japan]

What is the correct word for " γεννάω" in the English?
" to beget, to bring forth "
Yes, I agree that we could use the word, "father" as the verb tense.

There is no single word in English for this Greek word. It depends on the voice and tense of the word in the context.

 

[Van]

it. The word gennao in 1 John 5:1 is passive. Any lexicon (Strong's is not a lexicon) will tell you that when this verb is passive it means "born." So the NASB is being literal. The "fathered" rendering in other versions may come from the fact that the verb is a perfect tense there, but is a little bit interpretive.

Yes, but a passive verb means the subject (everyone believing) has been acted upon (born, fathered, begat). I do not understand how the passive voice of the verb points to born rather than fathered. Note that the NET version renders the passive voice gennao as fathered in 1 John 5:1.

Here is the NET footnote (from 1 John 2:29) on the topic:

"82tn The verb γεννάω (gennaw) presents a translation problem: (1) should the passive be translated archaically “be begotten” (the action of the male parent; see BDAG 193 s.v. 1.a) or (2) should it be translated “be born” (as from a female parent; see BDAG 194 s.v. 2)? A number of modern translations (RSV, NASB, NIV) have opted for the latter, but (3) the imagery expressed in 1 John 3:9 clearly refers to the action of the male parent in procreating a child, as does 5:1 (“everyone who loves the father loves the child fathered by him”), and so a word reflecting the action of the male parent is called for here. The contemporary expression “fathered by” captures this idea."

 

[John of Japan]

In 1 John 5:1 the middle usage of "gennao" is translated "Father" and more literally as the "one fathering" Surely no one would ascribe to the "one birthing?"

There should be a systematic way of choosing how to translate words with more than one meaning. If the action is attributed to God, fathering or fathered, and if the action is by a female, then born seems appropriate.

The word s actually in the passive voice in both occurrences in this verse, and not the middle.

 

[John of Japan]

Yes, but a passive verb means the subject (everyone believing) has been acted upon (born, fathered, begat). I do not understand how the passive voice of the verb points to born rather than fathered. Note that the NET version renders the passive voice gennao as fathered in 1 John 5:1.

The Greek passive is sometimes more complicated than the modern English passive, as in this case.

 

[Van]

The word s actually in the passive voice in both occurrences in this verse, and not the middle.

I was referring to the second of three usages, not the middle voice.

 

[Van]

The Greek passive is sometimes more complicated than the modern English passive, as in this case.

Here is the NET footnote addressing the complication:
"82tn The verb γεννάω (gennaw) presents a translation problem: (1) should the passive be translated archaically “be begotten” (the action of the male parent; see BDAG 193 s.v. 1.a) or (2) should it be translated “be born” (as from a female parent; see BDAG 194 s.v. 2)? A number of modern translations (RSV, NASB, NIV) have opted for the latter, but (3) the imagery expressed in 1 John 3:9 clearly refers to the action of the male parent in procreating a child, as does 5:1 (“everyone who loves the father loves the child fathered by him”), and so a word reflecting the action of the male parent is called for here. The contemporary expression “fathered by” captures this idea."

 

[John of Japan]

Here is the NET footnote addressing the complication:
"82tn The verb γεννάω (gennaw) presents a translation problem: (1) should the passive be translated archaically “be begotten” (the action of the male parent; see BDAG 193 s.v. 1.a) or (2) should it be translated “be born” (as from a female parent; see BDAG 194 s.v. 2)? A number of modern translations (RSV, NASB, NIV) have opted for the latter, but (3) the imagery expressed in 1 John 3:9 clearly refers to the action of the male parent in procreating a child, as does 5:1 (“everyone who loves the father loves the child fathered by him”), and so a word reflecting the action of the male parent is called for here. The contemporary expression “fathered by” captures this idea."

Thank you, but I don't consider the NET notes to be very good, since the NET is dynamic/functional equivalence.

 

[John of Japan]

I was referring to the second of three usages, not the middle voice.

Aha. I see.