Both Camps Limit The...

[TCGreek]

So TCG, how could the followers of the Anti-Christ potentially have been saved if they had not rejected the Truth that could have saved them. - Interesting indeed.
I simply use this as an example because it goes completely against view of Limited Atonement if those who are known to be condemned (future) could have been saved AT ALL - even hypothetically.

Could it be that Christ was speaking specifically of those who would be of faith and therefore the recipients of His Atoning sacrifice for all the world.

John is specific in his usage of the term 'world' and it is never used for the elect alone. But more specifically his usage of the phrase 'whole world' which means every sinful and wicked man (not the already redeemed).

Forgive me, but I'm not reading you correctly. Can you simlify a bit?

 

[russell55]

Do you agree that everyone in the OT that had a sacrificial atonement made on their behalf will be saved?

No, but then the OT sacrificial atonement did not take away sin. But whatever it did do (the outward cleansing, dealing with ceremonial uncleanness), it did for the whole nation.

Jesus's sacrifice is patterned after this. His sacrifice was made "in order to sanctify the people through his own blood," only unlike the OT sacrifices, his sacrifice really took away their sins and cleansed their consciences.

 

[TCGreek]

If I read you guys correctly, Are you saying that NNE was forgiven of sins under the OT?

 

[Allan]

Forgive me, but I'm not reading you correctly. Can you simlify a bit?

Ok.
You stated in your #1:

1. So Christ's atonement is only potential in its efficacy? Interesting!

Then I stated regarding Christ's Atonement have 'potential...efficany':

Originally Posted by Allan
So TCG, how could the followers of the Anti-Christ potentially have been saved [as says the scriptures, if atonement is limited. Yet it states] if they had not rejected the Truth that could have saved them". - Interesting indeed.

I simply use this as an example because it goes completely against view of Limited Atonement if those who are known to be condemned (future) could have been saved AT ALL - even hypothetically.

everything in [ ] are added for clarity (hopefully )

Secondly:
You asked in your #2:

2. So When Christ said He was going to die for His sheep, He was only speaking potentially. Interesting!

Could it be that Christ was speaking specifically of those [He knew would be] ...of faith and therefore the recipients of His Atoning sacrifice [receiving the propitiation through faith (Rom 3:24-26)] for [us and not us only, but for] all the world.

John is specific in his usage of the term 'world' and it is never used for the elect alone [IOW - never used to mean the elect]. But more specifically [regarding world not meaning His Elect] his usage of the phrase 'whole world' which means every sinful and wicked man (not the already redeemed).

everthing in [ ] are added for clarity.

Post 11 clears much of this up since I am basically showing the same things in shorter form here which is elaborated more clearly there.

 

[TCGreek]

In short, I believe that Christ atonement was only particular in its scope (Matt 1:21; John 10:15) until I'm convinced otherwise from Scripture.

 

[Allan]

If I read you guys correctly, Are you saying that NNE was forgiven of sins under the OT?

No, that is not what we are saying brother.

We are saying that the Sacrifice of Atonement was made on behalf of all of Israel, and this sacrifice dealt with sin. But not everyone under that Atoning sacrifice was saved since it is received by faith.

Does that Atonement cleanse those who were in active rebellion against God but Jews? Did it clease those who were not repentant of their idolitry, adultries, and other sins they desired to continue in, even though they were Jews?

The answer: Of Course Not. The propitiatory merit of the Atonement was applied to those of faith who received it as a substitutionary payment of their sins.

We are saying there were those who were not cleansed under the Atoning Sacrifice, though it was made in and on behalf of all the Jews.
Since the Majority of Jews WERE repenant and seeking this (which is the Nation or National sense), the others (though small in number) were not included in the benifits of the Atonement because it was not received of them by faith.

the Atonement by itself imparts nothing to anyone of itself. Scripture states it must be received through faith in order to justify us in Christ before a Holy God.

 

[Allan]

In short, I believe that Christ atonement was only particular in its scope (Matt 1:21; John 10:15) until I'm convinced otherwise from Scripture.

Then please address my posting in Post #11 which regards the followers of the Anti-Christ and the fact that scripture states they are condemned "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. "
Remember, this was said of the Anti-Christ's followers.

It was Limited then this scripture makes God a liar.
If Christ did not make an Atonement for them, then there is no way God can make the statement 'that they might be SAVED'.

Please go back and elaborate for me on Post #11.

 

[Allan]

In short, I believe that Christ atonement was only particular in its scope (Matt 1:21; John 10:15) until I'm convinced otherwise from Scripture.

I beleive it was both in scope.

Universal in that it fulfilled the requirments of the Law for the Sacrifice of Atonement. (the Law condemns though it shows the way)

But Particular in that was to redeem those of faith whom God foreknew. (Grace frees us from condemnation through faith)

Thus All men are justly condemned and aquitted in Christ alone.

 

[russell55]

If I read you guys correctly, Are you saying that NNE was forgiven of sins under the OT?

I'm not sure if this is directed to me or not, but I think Hebrews tells us that the OT sacrifices were unable to take away sins. Those people in the OT who had their sins forgiven had them forgiven through Christ's sacrifice, which was able to take away sins.

 

[TCGreek]

Then please address my posting in Post #11 which regards the followers of the Anti-Christ and the fact that scripture states they are condemned "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. "
Remember, this was said of the Anti-Christ's followers.

1. Scripture says the lost are lost because of their refusal of truth and consequently. Jesus Christ.

It was Limited then this scripture makes God a liar.
If Christ did not make an Atonement for them, then there is no way God can make the statement 'that they might be SAVED'.

2. They are not saved because of their refusal to acknowledge the truth and consequently Christ.

3. Everyone the Father has given to the Son will be saved (John 6:35ff).

4. Isn't it interesting that even with the outpouring of the 4, 5, 6th bowl on men, they would still blaspheme God and not glorify Him.

5. The lost end up in hell of their sins and rebellion against God.

 

[swaimj]

Allan,

Thank you for post 11. It is a very good post and very clear. I am waiting along with you to see if a calvinist will respond to it...

 

[TCGreek]

I will add this, if I may regarding those who scripture says are followers of the Anti-Christ who are most definately condemned we find they are condemned because they rejected the truth that could have saved them. How could it have saved them (who are most definately destined for destruction) if Christ died ONLY for a certian amount of people?

Lets look at it in 2 Thes.


Now granted this is about those who will follow the Anti-Christ but there is no better text in scripture to establish my point. I mean these followers of his are already known to be destined for an eternal hell.

First - If salvation was purchased for a 'limited' number only then no man who was not regarded as one of that number can be said to be even 'potentially' saved. The Gospel call is not regard as anything before God for that individual regarding salvation for them.

Second - If God compels or irresistably draws men then no man can reject the truth God reveals. If a person knows saving truth it is only because God has revealed it since the natural man can not know spiritual things.

Third - If God chose some (the Redeemed) NOT by any foreknowledge of choice then all men whom Christ will not die for are already condemned regardless of unbelief and that belief or unbelief has no significance with regard to Gods choosing.

Now in verse 10 we find some interesting things.
1. - The scrpture states the anti-christ will use all types of deception on those who [are] perishing or [will] perish. NEXT the scripture says WHY they are destined to perish. Does it stat they perish because God did not chose them regardless of belief? No, but here is what it begins with - BECAUSE or DUE TO THIS - here is the reason they will perish, be damned, or condemned to God's Judgment - wrath and Hell.
THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH...
The term 'received' is not in the Passive voice (meaning God does this to or in them) but is in the Middle Deponent which is almost always used in the Active voice (meaning the subject such as 'they' is the doer). It was 'THEIR' choice NOT to receive. You might ask me where I saw a choice. First in the fact 'they' did not 'receive' or (take to themselves - to learn, like John 6:45). and Second is found in #2.

2. ...THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. Now here is a very strange thing to say if Christ did not die for them. If God did not choose them they CAN NOT even be considered 'potentially' or remotely 'hypothetically' saved. And yet the text reads
"in them that perish BECAUSE they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved". Apparently receiving truth is connected to salvation. Many Calvinists would agree as do I. But were we differ is in the FACT scripture states THEY PERISH BECAUSE...They did not receive the love of the Truth...that could save them.

3. If Christ did not die for them then this verse is a farce, and a false declaration by God Himself. He does not state they perish because they were not chosen regardless of belief or that their damnation has nothing to do with their choice, but that they perish becuase they WOULD NOT not COULD NOT beleive the truth and that THEY (who to some were pre-ordained to perish and have no hope of salvation) might BE SAVED. and if that isn't enough God goes after this truth again in the next verse


Quote:
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

'For this cause' - what cause or for what reason (not believing the truth that could save them) ... God shall send them a strong delusion that they will believe a lie. They chose the Lie over the Truth and for THEIR CHOOSING God sends forth His Judgment against them for their rejection of truth or The Truth (Jesus).
Now listen to how God closes this:



So far we have these people rejecting the truth (Christ Jesus) that could save them. Then God sends forth a Judgment of delusion (blindness) AFTER rejecting the truth that they will continue believing the lie. BUT NOW...
NOW, we see something interesting regarding their condemnation or damnation. For God states He sent that delusion (blindness) after their rejection of the Truth that they might be saved, SO THEY MIGHT ALL BE DAMNED... Notice please their damnation was not sealed until they rejected the truth that COULD HAVE SAVED THEM. If you don't believe me just read the rest of the sentence. God DAMNS (condemns to judgment) those who rejected and did not believe the Truth (Jesus), but had pleasure in their unrighteousness. Notice they are condemned by their choice.

They were not hated and condemned by God who passed over them and did not provide a means of salvation for them like some declare. According to these passages of scripture it was their choice that determined in the eyes of God their relationship with Him - whether in unity and Love or seperated and under condemnation. Thus Gods chosing us unto Himself IS or does have some basis in us believing His Truth.

And for those who might still try to state, the reason they did not beleive is because they were not 'irresistably draw'. Then I ask you:
If a person has the potential of being saved must they not be draw by God?
And if God draws them how can they harden their hearts, or reject His truth THAT COULD SAVE THEM since salvation is only possible for limited?
And lastly how can the scriptures declare of the followers of the anti-christ, "that they might be saved"?


I know this seems off topic and if you (TCG) deem it so then it will die here. But I think it is somewhat relevent and so I set it forth. Do with it what you choose brother.

1. Not at all! It is so relevant. People are lost because of their sin and rebellion against God, for that is what I see in Scripture.

2. And precisely because they reject the truth, they cannot be saved.

3. All that the Father has given the Son will come and be raised up at the last day and Jesus will lose none (John 6:37, 39).

4. People are lost because they choose to rebel against God in sin.

 

[russell55]

they are condemned "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. "
Remember, this was said of the Anti-Christ's followers.

It was Limited then this scripture makes God a liar.

I believe the text in the big bold type is a purpose statement. The reason someone receives the love of the truth is "so as to be saved." Since they didn't receive the love of the truth, "so as to be saved" doesn't apply to them.

 

[Allan]

1. Scripture says the lost are lost because of their refusal of truth and consequently. Jesus Christ.



2. They are not saved because of their refusal to acknowledge the truth and consequently Christ.

3. Everyone the Father has given to the Son will be saved (John 6:35ff).

4. Isn't it interesting that even with the outpouring of the 4, 5, 6th bowl on men, they would still blaspheme God and not glorify Him.

5. The lost end up in hell of their sins and rebellion against God.

Brother, you have not answered the question but side stepped to every position I already agree with.

Yes, all those whom God gave to Christ will be saved.
Yes, they are condemned because of their refusal to acknowledge Christ
And your #4 is established in the very portion of scripture I have already given. It is no surprize, since God sealed them in their unbelief.

But what you neglect to address is that scripture states 'that they might be SAVED'. If atonement is limited then THIS statement is false and therefore God is a liar since it is known already they will be condemned and not savable. YET God states they will not believe the truth that THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. Again if atonement is limited to only those who believe then these Christ rejecters COULD NOT, nay CAN NOT be potentially much less hypothetically saved EVEN IF THEY WANTED TO BELEIVE. Yet scripture specifically states 'that they MIGHT BE SAVED' regarding those whom are forknown to reject and deny Christ.

 

[Allan]

I believe the text in the big bold type is a purpose statement. The reason someone receives the love of the truth is "so as to be saved." Since they didn't receive the love of the truth, "so as to be saved" doesn't apply to them.

Exactly, so until they DID reject it, it (salvation) was applicable TO them previously.

 

[Allan]

2. And precisely because they reject the truth, they cannot be saved.

4. People are lost because they choose to rebel against God in sin.

One last thing:

2. Regarding Limited - It is not that they can not be saved not because they reject the truth but because no atonement was made on their behalf. Regardless of belief, if no atonement was made no salvation can be applicable. So if the scripture states they COULD have been saved it mandates Atonement for them MUST have been made.

4. Same as #2.

 

[TCGreek]

Brother, you have not answered the question but side stepped to every position I already agree with.

Yes, all those whom God gave to Christ will be saved.
Yes, they are condemned because of their refusal to acknowledge Christ
And your #4 is established in the very portion of scripture I have already given. It is no surprize, since God sealed them in their unbelief.

But what you neglect to address is that scripture states 'that they might be SAVED'. If atonement is limited then THIS statement is false and therefore God is a liar since it is known already they will be condemned and not savable. YET God states they will not believe the truth that THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. Again if atonement is limited to only those who believe then these Christ rejecters COULD NOT, nay CAN NOT be potentially much less hypothetically saved EVEN IF THEY WANTED TO BELEIVE. Yet scripture specifically states 'that they MIGHT BE SAVED' regarding those whom are forknown to reject and deny Christ.

Scripture does not teach potential atonement but definite atonement. Christ accomplished something definite at the Cross.

 

[Allan]

Scripture does not teach potential atonement but definite atonement. Christ accomplished something definite at the Cross.

Fine (and I scripturally disagree though ). Then please deal with the text provided that states those who will be condemnded do to rejecting the truth might have been saved. As I stated previously:

Regarding Limited - It is not that they can not be saved not because they reject the truth but because no atonement was made on their behalf. Regardless of belief, if no atonement was made no salvation can be applicable. So if the scripture states they COULD have been saved it mandates Atonement for them MUST have been made.

It is the most straight forward text regarding the Lost 'might have been saved', and no salvation can be forth coming unless Atonement is made on their behalf. Otherwise it is a lie, period.

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours ONLY, but the sins of the whole World.

 

[TCGreek]

Fine. Then please deal with the text provided that states those who will be condemnded do to rejecting the truth might have been saved. As I stated previously:

1. There is no way that those who ultimately reject the truth could have been saved.

2. Besides, the gospel call goes out to all indiscriminately, but only those called of God, responds and are saved. I suggest that you understand 2 Thess 2:10 in light of this fact.

 

[russell55]

Exactly, so until they DID reject it, it (salvation) was applicable TO them previously.

When in their lives were they ever NOT "not receiving the love of the truth"?