Bottom Line on Judging Zimmerman's Actions...

[church mouse guy]

This is slightly off the subject but I was wondering what kind of place Sanford, Florida, was when I found out that Reformed Theologian R.C. Sproul had moved his Ligonier Ministries to Sanford, Florida, a few years ago. I still don't understand why the housing complex was so dimly lit. I lived in an area that was the murder capital of Indiana for a couple of years and my complex was lit like daytime so I was safe as long as I didn't go out at night. I would think that the complex would install lighting soon.

The Martin mother said that she would accept whatever verdict so maybe everything will fade in time. As for Dershowitz's saying that the prosecutor is unethical, unlawful and unprofessional, I think that he failed to note that Sanford, Florida, was under intense political pressure from Washington DC.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Maybe Zimmerman was deep down itching to shot someone or it could be more innocent than that, but at a minimum I think it fair to say he was itching to get into a conflict, which seems quite evident and undeniable.

I can deny it. George Zimmerman is a conscientious good neighbor who wanted his neighborhood to be safe from the ravages of crime that had caused the safety and community feeling around his home to deteriorate, and through that deterioration had brought upon the community an influence of the residents that led them to feel unsafe either walking their streets or even enjoying the supposed sanctuary of their own home.

There is absolutely no evidence that Zimmerman's motivations to constantly call in prowler reports or suspicious character sightings were malicious, prejudiced, or "itching" for anything other than a return to the safety he and his friends and neighbors had experienced prior to the growth of crime and violence in their community. To claim, as the prosecutors have, that his consistently accurate and correct (as in politically, racially and socially) reports to police dispatchers of people who did not belong in his neighborhood were an overt effort to find and participate in confrontation is ludicrous.

The prosecution fails to add to this characterization of Zimmerman that his calls led to the arrest of 12 known criminals, none of whom live in Zimmerman's neighborhood but who were nonetheless loitering in his neighborhood for reasons they could not adequately explain, and that nine of these known criminals were walking free despite warrants for their arrest for a range of crimes that included burglary, sexual assault and armed robbery.

Maybe he was simply scared, being in over his head once the conflict began, but either way he is the initial cause which lead to this young man’s death and has some responsibility here…but how much is what is hard to say.

Maybe in over his head, but not because he willingly placed himself in the position to be beaten up. He had kept surveillance contact with the previously mentioned "suspicious persons," many of whom turned out to be wanted criminals, without being confronted by them. It is clear to me from the audio tape of 9-1-1 calls and the accounts of eyewitnesses that Martin confronted Zimmerman unreasonably and initiated a fight that he fully intended to end in George Zimmerman's death or great bodily injury. I have no doubt whatsoever that, had Martin not been shot, he would be the arrestee and would now be facing charges of assault and battery with intent to kill or injury, or perhaps even murder, .

Should he get a slap on the hand, has he been through enough already?

He should go Scot free. He has done nothing illegal.

Should he be completely forgiven for his actions or should he be made an example of?

He should be forgiven and released.

Would it be just for his actions to be completely forgiven and no punishment given?[/quote[Absolutely.

What if it was your child, would you satisfied if someone like this, that put himself into a situation that got out of hand was allowed to be completely excused?

One, Zimmerman didn't put himself into the situation, he was confronted by Martin, who obviously had deadly intent. Two, absolutely, if my kid was as stupid and punkish as Martin, I'd be sad (certainly) and probably angry at Zimmerman but that would no more excuse my stupid punkish kid for being stupid and punkish than it does Martin.

And what about Martin, he wasn’t the initial cause ...

That is your opinion, but not one supported by the evidence we've heard and seen over the last two weeks.

If Martin was an overwhelming secondary cause does that shift ALL responsibility over to him alone?

He wasn't the secondary cause. He was directly responsible for Zimmerman's injuries and his own death. The blame was initially placed (and should have remained) squarely on the shoulders of the punk criminal Treyvon Martin.

Did Zimmerman irrationally fear for his life and go overboard just like he irrationally got himself into this situation

Again, you've worded your question in a way that I feel it is incumbent upon me to correct, for it inaccurately states the situation. Zimmerman did not irrationally fear for his life, his life was actually in danger, as he was confronted by an irrationally aggressive teen whose attack on Zimmerman resulted in the death of the young man who initiated the situation by his behavior.

Or did he suddenly act completely rational when this young man uncontrollably attacked him or was it that Martin began on his own role playing and Zimmerman innocently misjudged how severe the reverse situation now was?

You started out strong with that statement but lost your focus. Zimmerman was rational in his reaction, the threat being both life-endangering and completely not his fault or responsibility in causing. However, he was absolutely within his rights to take the actions he did, given he had a legitimate reason to respond to the confrontation of Zimmerman by the strange and irrationally acting young man who took it upon himself to make the situation personal to the extent he (Martin) was willing to commit murder to resolve.

(2)…a well-meaning volunteer who feared for his life in a struggle with the unarmed teenager who was slamming his head into concrete.

AThat's the most rational statement in the post.

Did Martin start the violent event, single handedly ...

Yes. That's all the question and all the answer needed.

We don’t know all the facts and Martin, unfortunately, isn’t here to tell his side.

Given his criminal and drug history, he'd likely lie about it regardless. I don't say that lightly or without basis. I've spent twelve years as a an addictions counselor to inner city youth and adults.The sad fact is, though we would like to believe the best of all young people and find an "aggressor" who "deliberately caused his death" when the reality is the only aggressor whose actions resulted in death was Treyvon Martin.

Would it not be reasonable to believe that Zimmerman has at least some responsibility here too in this conflict becoming violent?[/quote[Nope. It would be completely unreasonable to believe hat.

Or was Martin so radically immoral that for someone to merely approach him would set him off into a violent attack after being totally unprovoked?

Absolutely, and he wasn't the only teenager like that. Many continue to walk the streets today with that same ugly chip on their shoulder, thinking there are within their rights to kill someone for looking at them wrong.

Is it reasonable to believe that Zimmerman also had at least some responsibility here also adding to the depth of his part in this?…

Again, no.

I don’t think we can know the bottom line according to the defense of whether or not Zimmerman “wanted” to shot someone.

On the contrary, I think we know all we need to know to find Zimmerman not guilty.

It just isn’t clear enough to put it that simply and there were many extenuating circumstances that led up to the fact that he did shot someone.

Again, on the contrary, I think is is perfectly clear who was the aggressor, and who was the innocent party who was well within his rights to defend himself, even with deadly force.

It seems to me, given reasonable doubt and assuming innocent until proven guilty that the exact intent will not be able to be proved without a doubt.

I completely disagree, as you've undoubtedly seen in my responses. Zimmerman's innocence has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I wish we could have been there and looking into the minds of these people to know all the facts but unfortunately we are left with this “bottom line” regarding Zimmerman’s actions:

Some responsibility or no responsibility.

If there is to be any justice this must be answered honestly as the only reasonable bottom line we are left with.

No responsibility whatsoever. To me, it is obvious.

On the side bar ...

Given my conclusion, there is no "sidebar." Let Zimmerman go.

 

[Revmitchell]

This is slightly off the subject but I was wondering what kind of place Sanford, Florida, was when I found out that Reformed Theologian R.C. Sproul had moved his Ligonier Ministries to Sanford, Florida, a few years ago. I still don't understand why the housing complex was so dimly lit. I lived in an area that was the murder capital of Indiana for a couple of years and my complex was lit like daytime so I was safe as long as I didn't go out at night. I would think that the complex would install lighting soon.

The Martin mother said that she would accept whatever verdict so maybe everything will fade in time. As for Dershowitz's saying that the prosecutor is unethical, unlawful and unprofessional, I think that he failed to note that Sanford, Florida, was under intense political pressure from Washington DC.

Sanford is my old stomping ground. It is a suburb of Orlando. It is filled with middle class families for the most part. There is a section of wealthy and a section of poor. I don't know of many middle class neighborhoods in Fla that are lit all that well.

This kind of situation happens all the time around the country every week So why did this particular case go national? Because Washington, Sharpton, and the liberal black establishment made it so. And.....there are a few poor saps that are gullible enough to believe it.

 

[Zaac]

Sanford is my old stomping ground. It is a suburb of Orlando. It is filled with middle class families for the most part. There is a section of wealthy and a section of poor. I don't know of many middle class neighborhoods in Fla that are lit all that well.

This kind of situation happens all the time around the country every week So why did this particular case go national? Because Washington, Sharpton, and the liberal black establishment made it so. And.....there are a few poor saps that are gullible enough to believe it.

Well at this point I'm sure Trayvon's parents are happy about Washington, Sharpton and the liberal Black establishment because neither the Sanford police or the conservative white establishment was doing anything since in their words, her child was just another "thug".

 

[Revmitchell]

The detective on the case got yanked off of it due to pressure from Washington


Trayvons father first said it was not his sons voice on the tape until the mayor held an unprecedented meeting in his office with a group of people to include Trayvons parents to listen to the tape again. No surprise they all came out changing their statements on whose voice it was.

Trayvon had dope in his bloodstream

Trayvon tried to first take the gun away from Zimmerman before Zimmerman ever reached for it.

Yes Trayvon was a stoner thug and he brought this on his self.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The detective on the case got yanked off of it due to pressure from Washington


Trayvons father first said it was not his sons voice on the tape until the mayor held an unprecedented meeting in his office with a group of people to include Trayvons parents to listen to the tape again. No surprise they all came out changing their statements on whose voice it was.

Trayvon had dope in his bloodstream

Trayvon tried to first take the gun away from Zimmerman before Zimmerman ever reached for it.

Yes Trayvon was a stoner thug and he brought this on his self.

 

[Zaac]

The detective on the case got yanked off of it due to pressure from Washington

Heresay.

Trayvons father first said it was not his sons voice on the tape until the mayor held an unprecedented meeting in his office with a group of people to include Trayvons parents to listen to the tape again. No surprise they all came out changing their statements on whose voice it was.

Zimmermans parents and family got together to get on the same page with their stories too.

Trayvon had dope in his bloodstream.

Can stay in there for up to 30 days and be detectable in the blood. Means nothing and is merely speculative in trying to paint Trayvon as a certain type Black young man.

Trayvon tried to first take the gun away from Zimmerman before Zimmerman ever reached for it.

Heresay from the man who murdered him.

Yes Trayvon was a stoner thug and he brought this on his self.

Opinion based on selective other opinion.

 

[Revmitchell]

merely speculative in trying to paint Trayvon as a certain type Black young man.

Are you black?

 

[church mouse guy]

...Can stay in there for up to 30 days and be detectable in the blood. Means nothing and is merely speculative in trying to paint Trayvon as a certain type Black young man....

I think that it was established that he showed signs of having just used drugs when he appeared on the camera of the convenience store where he bought the candy and beverage. Anyway the medical report would have shown more recent signs than 30 days if the usage was only an hour or so ago, wouldn't it?

 

[church mouse guy]

Sanford is my old stomping ground. It is a suburb of Orlando. It is filled with middle class families for the most part. There is a section of wealthy and a section of poor. I don't know of many middle class neighborhoods in Fla that are lit all that well.

This kind of situation happens all the time around the country every week So why did this particular case go national? Because Washington, Sharpton, and the liberal black establishment made it so. And.....there are a few poor saps that are gullible enough to believe it.

I am thinking that electricity is much cheaper in Indiana than it is in Florida. That could explain the lighting. Do street lights attract tons of bugs in Florida? Anyway, I have had many people tell me that Indianapolis has a lower cost of living than Florida.

The District of Colombia should start worrying about the murder in Chicago since so many Chicagoans work in the White House. Obama, a Harvard-educated law professor, should not have commented on this case. I am beginning to think that Harvard Law School is not so good, but then Harvard Law Professor Dershowitz is so widely respected in liberal circles that when he said that there was no evidence against Zimmerman I had to believe him. It is just common sense.

 

[Revmitchell]

Why isn't this national news?


SCHEREVILLE, Ind. (FOX 32 News) -

Three men have been charged with killing 24 year old Jacqueline Gardner and taking the tip money she earned from her restaurant job on May 19th.

One of the three men, Stephen Lee Henderson, 25, of Gary, is still at large and considered armed and dangerous, Schererville police said Wednesday.

In custody at the Lake County Jail are Michael A. Craig, 22, of Merrillville, and William Blasingame III, 30, of Harvey, Ill.

All three were charged with murder and a second count of murder in the perpetration of a robbery.

Read more: http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/18616119/police-indiana#ixzz2YvtHmfJ3

 

[annsni]

I believe both men were responsible. Trayvon shouldn't have confronted the man following him. Zimmerman should have left Trayvon alone after calling the police. It was not his responsibility to confront Trayvon. Both men used their bravado to get themselves into a mess. Unfortunately one got killed for it and the other one's life is changed forever.

It was interesting because on a show last night, after showing this, they showed another case of a man who was using the defense that he felt his life was in danger so he shot his gun and killed one (or two) men. (I can't remember all the details because we were at the hospital waiting for my dad to be released and so I just caught bits.) What was interesting was that the man had a video camera as he went out to confront a crowd of people at a neighborhood party and he started saying "I fear for my life" over and over again as soon as he was within 15 feet of anyone. He told them to not come closer or he'd shoot them - and then he did. He shot the gun numerous times. The man was in an orange jumper so I assume that he was convicted. But it showed that going in to confront and then feeling threatened does not equal innocence.

 

[Salty]

Ann,
I saw the same show. The man went over initially because the neighbors had a large party with extremely loud music, and now it was past midnight. He had called police but they had not come. Had the police responded, that sad incident would not have happened.

 

[Zaac]

I think that it was established that he showed signs of having just used drugs when he appeared on the camera of the convenience store where he bought the candy and beverage.

How does that show signs of having just used drugs? I think again this is just prejudice entering into the discussion because folks want to criminalize Trayvon Martin as a young, Black, drug using, (as many on here and in the media have termed him) "thug".

The toxicology reports showed very small trace amounts of THC in his system . The amounts would have been much higher if he had recently used drugs.

Anyway the medical report would have shown more recent signs than 30 days if the usage was only an hour or so ago, wouldn't it?

Yes it would have, but it didn't.

People are simply being led by some in the media again to believe that because there were pictures of Trayvon Martin with smoke coming out of his mouth on his phone and texts about marijuana that he had to be high on drugs that night.

 

[church mouse guy]

How does that show signs of having just used drugs? I think again this is just prejudice entering into the discussion because folks want to criminalize Trayvon Martin as a young, Black, drug using, (as many on here and in the media have termed him) "thug".

The toxicology reports showed very small trace amounts of THC in his system . The amounts would have been much higher if he had recently used drugs.

Yes it would have, but it didn't.

People are simply being led by some in the media again to believe that because there were pictures of Trayvon Martin with smoke coming out of his mouth on his phone and texts about marijuana that he had to be high on drugs that night.

I think that drug usage has to be considered a factor. I think that it clouds clarity of thought, or impairs judgment. We should revive the campaign of just say no. Trayvon was just going to his Dad's girlfriend's place. He should have said so. Both of them should have defused the situation. That is the marijuana showed up in my opinion. The bad area that I lived in was on the border between a suburb and Indianapolis. The suburb had the money to put a lot of police on their side of the line, which helped me. Indianapolis solved their problem by giving money to the county to put a lot of deputies in the area and they had an extremely tough sheriff at that time. Mostly we had been invaded by Los Angles drug dealers and others fighting amongst themselves. In a high crime area you keep to yourself. Zimmerman should have taken more precautions to avoid the attack from Martin.

 

[Zaac]

I think that drug usage has to be considered a factor.

Why? George Zimmerman didn't know if he had used drugs or had a history of using drugs when he shot him. That's just more criminalizing of folks based on stereotypes.

I think that it clouds clarity of thought, or impairs judgment.

Based on the toxicology reports, his drug use played as much a part that night as did Zimmerman's former woman beating charges.

We should revive the campaign of just say no. Trayvon was just going to his Dad's girlfriend's place. He should have said so.

Why? In talking with some of my Black friends, they said that they are amazed how non-Blacks, specifically white people think it's their place to question folks in their neighborhood.

Both of them should have defused the situation. That is the marijuana showed up in my opinion.

??? There was no marijuana or any proof that he had used marijuana that night. The toxcology reports point to just the opposite.

The bad area that I lived in was on the border between a suburb and Indianapolis. The suburb had the money to put a lot of police on their side of the line, which helped me. Indianapolis solved their problem by giving money to the county to put a lot of deputies in the area and they had an extremely tough sheriff at that time. Mostly we had been invaded by Los Angles drug dealers and others fighting amongst themselves. In a high crime area you keep to yourself. Zimmerman should have taken more precautions to avoid the attack from Martin.

Like staying in his car and letting the police do police work?

 

[Sapper Woody]

Admittedly, I've stayed out of this discussion because I don't know a lot of the facts. But there are a couple things I have to point out in this discussion.

Can stay in there for up to 30 days and be detectable in the blood. Means nothing and is merely speculative in trying to paint Trayvon as a certain type Black young man.

The toxicology reports showed very small trace amounts of THC in his system. The amounts would have been much higher if he had recently used drugs.

THC only stays in your system a few days. It's been shown in urinalyses that a person can smoke marijuana over the weekend, and then it not show positive in a urinalysis on Monday. I've seen it myself.

Now, the more often a person smokes, the longer it takes to get rid of THC in the blood. It's been reported that a regular user can have appositive test up to 45 days from usage, while a few extreme cases have even been detected up to 90 days.

Basically, I said all that to say this: if THC was in his system, then either he recently used it or was a habitual user.

However, marijuana does not make you aggressive. It relaxes you and is a downer. Makes you hungry and paranoid. My guess, based off experience (no I've never smoked it, but have seen people who have) is that if he were under the influence of marijuana at the time, he'd have been less inclined to confront anyone, and would most likely not even have noticed he was being followed.

Now, looking at this conversation, Zaac, you are the only one using the word 'black'. You keep saying that people are trying to paint him as some stereotypical black thug. No one else has used anything even remotely close to saying that. The issue with race seems to be on your side.

Personally, I haven't been watching the case that closely. But from what I've heard and seen, I am currently of the opinion that Zimmerman should be acquitted. It appears as if he did nothing wrong. It looks like he wasn't very prudent, but he did nothing wrong.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Thank you for your meaningless rhetorical contribution of an Ad Hominem to this thread.

And thank you for an ill-informed, thoughtless thread. You are delusional.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

It appear you see no responsibility for this death on Zimmerman's part whatsoever? Interesting...

And you refuse the let the justice system work. You want him punished despite the facts.

Disgusting.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Can stay in there for up to 30 days and be detectable in the blood.

Marijuana, yes. But Martin's blood tested positive for cocaine, which can remains detectable in moderate doses for only 24-36 hours, and in heavier doses for 72 hours.

Means nothing and is merely speculative in trying to paint Trayvon as a certain type Black young man.

On the contrary, because it was cocaine, it likely he was somewhere between being high, and craving another hit, which would account for his aggressiveness in attacking Zimmerman.

Based on the toxicology reports, his drug use played as much a part that night as did Zimmerman's former woman beating charges.

Sorry, Zack, but the tox screen indicates (as noted) he was likely acting in an overly aggressive manner because of his drug usage, something that the police initially looked at but which the prosecution rejected as "relevant" solely based on the public outrage over an incident that is really nothing more than a stone-cold thug earning the consequences for his actions.

Heresay from the man who murdered him.

Mischaracterization. Self-defense, not murder.