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Bought and Then Redeemed!
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Through a faith of our own or through a faith given to us as a gift at the moment of our salvation?
This is a critical question as some are ascribing faith, coming from an unregenerated and spiritually dead person, as the means by which God calls the spiritually dead man "righteous" and therefore elects to save that person.
In that view a person is therefore saved by merited approval and not saved by grace.
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
no one saved themselves because they humbled themselves and stood still and allowed someone else to save them (had personal faith in the rescuer)
We are justified by faith period No by works. Faith is not a work. thats what the bible says
We are saved by grace alone...period. Not by any works.
We are justified by the faith God gave us as a gift upon the moment that He saved us out of deadness until life. Read Ephesians 2:1-10 until it sinks in to your head that you never saved yourself by your incredible faith. You were saved by God's grace alone.
The soul that doth sin -- it doth die. A son doth not bear of the iniquity of the father, And a father doth not bear of the iniquity of the son. From Ezek 18:20
From 2 Cor 5:19 for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin,
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid upon him the iniquity of us all.
1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Titus 2:11 NASB For the grace of God has appeared, [fn]bringing salvation to all people,
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
He became the author of ---- How would, "the preeminence," of Col 1:18 apply here? Was Jesus, "the preeminent," heir, of the grace of life? 1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Just what do all of you believe, to be, the grace of God?
As someone posted: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Is Christ who died for our sins, dead?
1 Cor 15:16-18 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
The soul that sins dying it dost die.
2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως·
to-THE for grace YE-ARE ones-HAVING-been-SAVED through THE faith
What, grace and through the faith, of whom, if grace is what it appears, to be, to me from above?
I believe salvation is of God the Father through the Son of God. The Word made flesh.
From 2 Cor 5:19 for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin,
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid upon him the iniquity of us all.
1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Titus 2:11 NASB For the grace of God has appeared, [fn]bringing salvation to all people,
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
He became the author of ---- How would, "the preeminence," of Col 1:18 apply here? Was Jesus, "the preeminent," heir, of the grace of life? 1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Just what do all of you believe, to be, the grace of God?
As someone posted: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Is Christ who died for our sins, dead?
1 Cor 15:16-18 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
The soul that sins dying it dost die.
2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως·
to-THE for grace YE-ARE ones-HAVING-been-SAVED through THE faith
What, grace and through the faith, of whom, if grace is what it appears, to be, to me from above?
I believe salvation is of God the Father through the Son of God. The Word made flesh.
37818
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 1:3, ". . . Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; . . ."
If we are justified purely by faith, then there was no reason for Christ to die.
We are justified by the grace of God alone. He does not owe us salvation.
We are justified by the death and resurrection of Christ alone who satisfied the justice of God, something that we could never do for ourselves..
We are justified by faith alone, which is the conduit through which God's mercy flows.
All this according to the Scriptures alone to the glory of God alone.
37818
Well-Known Member
No. Christ died for that purpose. Habakkuk 2:4, ". . . the just shall live by his faith. . . ."
Yet another off topic personal attack.
1) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth.
2) Yes, every time you see saved by grace through faith, that faith existed before being utilized by God for salvation.
3) Justification results from redemption for salvation.
4) Pay no attention to the sect that claims claim 2 Peter 2:1 does not mean those heading for destruction were bought by Christ.
5) After becoming the means of salvation for all humanity 1 John 2:2, Christ saves everyone God transfers into His spiritual body, and loses none, as they all will be raised on the last day. Bought then redeemed!
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
Your right. We are saved by grace alone. But we are saved THROUGH faith. God is not just going to force you to believe.
Once again, No one ever saved THEMSELF because they humbled themselves and trusted the one who came to save them,
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
If Christ did nto die. then we would not have the ability to have faith in his offering. and woud have no means of justification
No one said he did that I know of.. did I miss something?? If I did. I am sorry
Whoever believes in him will not perish. but life forever. He who believes is not condemned. he who does not believe is condemned already..
we are saved by Grace THROUGH faith..
God wants us to trust his work.. and stop trusting in our own work..
We are saved by grace.
How do we know we are saved? The answer is...through faith.
Thus, faith cannot precede grace. We cannot have faith in a salvation that has not occurred. God must first save us by his grace alone, which, upon being saved, we confirm our salvation through faith...a faith gifted to us by God upon that moment when He graciously saved us. This faith is then what justifies us before God. This is why Paul tells us, in his great argument regarding justification by faith alone, that faith is a gift.
*Romans 3:21-26*
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
who said faith preceded grace?
We are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH.
Faith is offered to all.. Not everyone will receive it however. Thats why t is THROUGH faith
See post #29 and Van's second statement.
Your capacity to believe you have been saved is through faith. But your salvation itself is by grace alone.
This is why faith is a gift given after salvation so that you cannot boast about your faith being the means by which you were saved.
Paul is being quite clear for you, yet you're still putting human works in front of God's grace and thus your attempt to retard or remove God's grace entirely.
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
no. you have it backwards.
My capacity to be saved is on the means of grace. It is not achieved until I actually trust what God is offering me in faith. THEN I am justified. washed by the blood of the lamb, And born again, this new life being eternal..
Paul is clear. Sadly, You have people who HUMBLED THEMSELVES and does NOTHING but trust the one who came to save them saving themselves.
Funny how I have asked multiple times now and you refuse to answer HOW someone who TRUSTED completely in someone else to save them by sitting still and allowing them to do the work required. has saved themselves.
If you could save yourself. you would not need faith in God. Your faith would be in self.
Van said: ↑
2) Yes, every time you see saved by grace through faith, that faith existed before being utilized by God for salvation.
/QUOTE]
2) Greek grammar requires that if you are saved "through" faith, that faith existed before being saved. It is a lock.
3) Since the lost person has faith, credited by God as righteous faith, before being chosen for salvation, it cannot be a post salvation gift. Such a claim is incoherence nonsense.
4) Yes we are saved by grace alone. That is not at issue, thus an obfuscation effort.
5) Did anyone say our faith merited salvation? Nope, so the bogus claim from the pit of Hades is simple this posters calling card.
2) Yes, every time you see saved by grace through faith, that faith existed before being utilized by God for salvation.
/QUOTE]
1) Matthew 23:13 teaches spiritual dead natural men have enough spiritual ability to be "entering" the kingdom. Therefore the claim that spiritual dead people have no ability is bogus doctrine.
2) Greek grammar requires that if you are saved "through" faith, that faith existed before being saved. It is a lock.
3) Since the lost person has faith, credited by God as righteous faith, before being chosen for salvation, it cannot be a post salvation gift. Such a claim is incoherence nonsense.
4) Yes we are saved by grace alone. That is not at issue, thus an obfuscation effort.
5) Did anyone say our faith merited salvation? Nope, so the bogus claim from the pit of Hades is simple this posters calling card.
Died for what purpose? Why did He have to die? Why can't we just 'live by [our] faith'?
Here is your error.
First you speak truth "My capacity to be saved is on the means of grace."
Grace, defined, is God giving to you what you don't deserve. It is an unmerited favor.
But you wipe out grace with your next statement: "It is not achieved until I actually trust what God is offering me in faith."
Here you declare that you must "achieve" God's favor by first having faith before God can grant you his favor.
Therefore your statement is completely contrary to grace. Your means of salvation is not by grace, but is instead by works. You have said that salvation must be achieved by you trusting God through the faith you have within yourself, before God ever saves you.
Your position is a textbook example of salvation by human merit, not grace.
How it is that you are unable to understand this is really the big question here. God's word is very clearly teaching what I am stating, not what you are stating. Now, what is blocking your sight and your hearing of God's word? What is the actual stumbling block in your heart that is causing you to misunderstand grace, God's giving to you what you did not merit?
EG, you are the one who does not understand God's amazing grace on your behalf.
@Van brought up Matthew 23. Let's look at this chapter and see what Jesus is teaching. Is Jesus teaching us that "spiritual dead natural men have enough spiritual ability to be "entering" the kingdom" as Van claims?
Let's read and look:
In the beginning of the chapter Jesus warns the people about the Pharisees and the burden the Pharisees are placing on the people.
*Matthew 23:2-12*
“The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear,and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbiby others. But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
The next section is a pronouncement of 7 prophetic "Woes" upon the Pharisees.
*Matthew 23:13-36*
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hellas yourselves. “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.’ You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel! “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
@Van takes one of the woes upon the Pharisees and he attempts to argue that "spiritual dead natural men have enough spiritual ability to be "entering" the kingdom. "
"For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in."
Is this "woe" (prophetic curse on the Pharisees) teaching the doctrine of spiritual ability to enter into salvation before God saves a person out of deadness into life?
Is God's quickening not required before a person can be saved? Is that what the woe is saying? @Van is making that claim from this woe, found in Matthew 23.
Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2 state that Van is wrong.
Let's read and look:
In the beginning of the chapter Jesus warns the people about the Pharisees and the burden the Pharisees are placing on the people.
*Matthew 23:2-12*
“The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear,and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbiby others. But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
The next section is a pronouncement of 7 prophetic "Woes" upon the Pharisees.
*Matthew 23:13-36*
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hellas yourselves. “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.’ You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel! “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
@Van takes one of the woes upon the Pharisees and he attempts to argue that "spiritual dead natural men have enough spiritual ability to be "entering" the kingdom. "
"For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in."
Is this "woe" (prophetic curse on the Pharisees) teaching the doctrine of spiritual ability to enter into salvation before God saves a person out of deadness into life?
Is God's quickening not required before a person can be saved? Is that what the woe is saying? @Van is making that claim from this woe, found in Matthew 23.
Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2 state that Van is wrong.