Bought and Then Redeemed!

[Van]

@Van brought up Matthew 23. Let's look at this chapter and see what Jesus is teaching. Is Jesus teaching us that "spiritual dead natural men have enough spiritual ability to be "entering" the kingdom" as Van claims?
Snip
Is this "woe" (prophetic curse on the Pharisees) teaching the doctrine of spiritual ability to enter into salvation before God saves a person out of deadness into life?
Snip
Is God's quickening not required before a person can be saved? Is that what the woe is saying? @Van is making that claim from this woe, found in Matthew 23. Snip

Yet another long copy and paste of non-germane scripture and then the claim it supports his bogus view.

1) Did I say the lost have the spiritual ability to "entering into salvation?" Why not use my actual quote, "1) Matthew 23:13 teaches spiritual dead natural men have enough spiritual ability to be "entering" the kingdom. Therefore the claim that spiritual dead people have no ability is bogus doctrine."
2) Did I say the lost were not "made alive" (regenerated) as part of salvation? Nope I said the lost have their faith credited as righteous faith before God chooses them individually for salvation. It would be far fetched to argue that God saves those whose faith He does not credit with righteous faith.
3) Am I making the argument for conditional election for salvation based on Matthew 23:13 alone? Nope, there are about fifty examples where scripture refers to people having faith, including people with little faith! The concept that the lost are unable to believe in Christ, even though God asks people to believe in Christ is hubris.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Died for what purpose? Why did He have to die? Why can't we just 'live by [our] faith'?

because you would still be dead in your sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Here is your error.
First you speak truth "My capacity to be saved is on the means of grace."

Grace, defined, is God giving to you what you don't deserve. It is an unmerited favor.

But you wipe out grace with your next statement: "It is not achieved until I actually trust what God is offering me in faith."

Here you declare that you must "achieve" God's favor by first having faith before God can grant you his favor.

Therefore your statement is completely contrary to grace. Your means of salvation is not by grace, but is instead by works. You have said that salvation must be achieved by you trusting God through the faith you have within yourself, before God ever saves you.

Your position is a textbook example of salvation by human merit, not grace.

How it is that you are unable to understand this is really the big question here. God's word is very clearly teaching what I am stating, not what you are stating. Now, what is blocking your sight and your hearing of God's word? What is the actual stumbling block in your heart that is causing you to misunderstand grace, God's giving to you what you did not merit?

EG, you are the one who does not understand God's amazing grace on your behalf.

I understand it my friend

You do not

You have God making a person dead in sin, alive in sin. then somehow magically trusting God

I have myself as the tax collector. unable to even look up. calling out for Gods mercy.

He did not save himself because he trusted God. He trusted God because God brought him to his knees. and he became poor in spirit..

God did all the work.

 

[37818]

Died for what purpose? Why did He have to die? Why can't we just 'live by [our] faith'?

That God would be both just and justify through faith.
see Romans 3:23-26. Hebrews 9:22, ". . . without shedding of blood is no remission. . . ."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If Christ did not die. then we would not have the ability to have faith in his offering. and would have no means of justification

May I draw you out a little further? What is His 'offering' and what is the 'means of justification'?

No one said he did that I know of.. did I miss something?? If I did. I am sorry

I am trying to understand what this 'faith' consists of. The devils in hell know there's a God, but it doesn't do them any good.
{QUOTE]
Whoever believes in him will not perish. but life forever. He who believes is not condemned. he who does not believe is condemned already..

we are saved by Grace THROUGH faith..[/QUOTE]
So if I believe that there was someone called Jesus of Nazareth who lived a long time ago and did a lot of good stuff, am I saved?

God wants us to trust his work.. and stop trusting in our own work..

That is true so far as it goes, but it's not all.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

May I draw you out a little further? What is His 'offering' and what is the 'means of justification'?

His offering is the cross. And the means of justification is the atonement paid for by the blood of redemption on the cross

I am trying to understand what this 'faith' consists of. The devils in hell know there's a God, but it doesn't do them any good.

even demons believe yet tremble, many believe yet will be left wanting.

What is your faith in? The work of the cross and the promise of God. Or religion, works, your church..etc etc..

So if I believe that there was someone called Jesus of Nazareth who lived a long time ago and did a lot of good stuff, am I saved?

That is true so far as it goes, but it's not all.

no. that is not faith in Christ..how is that going to pay your sin debt?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

His offering is the cross. And the means of justification is the atonement paid for by the blood of redemption on the cross


even demons believe yet tremble, many believe yet will be left wanting.

What is your faith in? The work of the cross and the promise of God. Or religion, works, your church..etc etc..



no. that is not faith in Christ..how is that going to pay your sin debt?

Yes; thank you. It is the Lord Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:10), and we are justified as we turn from sin and trust in the finished work of the Saviour on the cross and in His resurrection from the dead (eg. Luke 24:46-47).
I am just concerned that we are clear about what, or more precisely, who, we are putting our faith in. Thank you again for your clarification.

 

[AustinC]

I understand it my friend

You do not

If you understood, you would not hold the view you hold.

You have God making a person dead in sin, alive in sin. then somehow magically trusting God.

No, The Bible says:
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Look at what it specifically says because that dead in sin person is made alive by God's grace.

I have myself as the tax collector. unable to even look up. calling out for Gods mercy.

He did not save himself because he trusted God. He trusted God because God brought him to his knees. and he became poor in spirit..

God did all the work.

Indeed, while you were dead in your trespasses and sins, God made you alive. There was no faith in you. There was only an effect that was caused by God making you alive and giving you the faith to believe.

Keep pondering what God is telling you so that you stop attempting to make yourself a co-savior with Jesus.

 

[AustinC]

Yet another long copy and paste of non-germane scripture and then the claim it supports his bogus view.

1) Did I say the lost have the spiritual ability to "entering into salvation?" Why not use my actual quote, "1) Matthew 23:13 teaches spiritual dead natural men have enough spiritual ability to be "entering" the kingdom. Therefore the claim that spiritual dead people have no ability is bogus doctrine."
2) Did I say the lost were not "made alive" (regenerated) as part of salvation? Nope I said the lost have their faith credited as righteous faith before God chooses them individually for salvation. It would be far fetched to argue that God saves those whose faith He does not credit with righteous faith.
3) Am I making the argument for conditional election for salvation based on Matthew 23:13 alone? Nope, there are about fifty examples where scripture refers to people having faith, including people with little faith! The concept that the lost are unable to believe in Christ, even though God asks people to believe in Christ is hubris.

Honestly, you keep attempting to wriggle out of your dilemma while still trying to hang on to a false construct. Why? What you teach is not what God teaches, yet you keep pushing it as truth.

Here's a huge reality!
The lost have ZERO faith. ZERO!
Your statement, the lost have their faith credited as righteous faith before God chooses them, is patently wrong and an abomination. It is utterly graceless and if I said the correct term you would seek to get me banned. I cannot state strong enough how awfully wrong you are. Every verse you attempt to use is blatantly out of context and goes against you. Yet, you persist in an awful theology of your own creation. You even change the word of God to create a translation that the original writer never said (see your John 3:16 translation). Am I being clear enough with you Van?
I am addressing your theology here Van. It's your theology that is just awful.

 

[Van]

SNIP
Your statement, the lost have their faith credited as righteous faith before God chooses them, is patently wrong and an abomination. SNIP

Here we have yet another taint so claim, but not a scintilla of biblical support.
1) Individuals are chosen for salvation "through" pre-existing "faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 God utilizes our existing faith in some way in His selection process, that is the meaning of "through."
2) Thus by necessity, the lost, those being chosen for salvation, have faith, but as with all good works, our faith is as filthy rags to God, meriting nothing. Isaiah 64:6
3) God credits (or not) the faith of some individuals as righteous faith. Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-25.
4) To suggest God bestows salvation upon those whose faith He did not credit is argument from absurdly and not worth addressing. Note one of the results attributed to those with credited faith is justification. Romans 4:23-25.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you understood, you would not hold the view you hold.


No, The Bible says:
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Look at what it specifically says because that dead in sin person is made alive by God's grace.


Indeed, while you were dead in your trespasses and sins, God made you alive. There was no faith in you. There was only an effect that was caused by God making you alive and giving you the faith to believe.

Keep pondering what God is telling you so that you stop attempting to make yourself a co-savior with Jesus.

Let use your own passage

No, The Bible says:
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

It is by Grace we have been saved (made alive) and what does paul say? we are saved (made live or born again) by GRACE THROUGH FAITH

your trying to remove faith from the equation. Even Jesus tells us, it is those who BELIEVE that will never die but has eternal life (born again) You can remove faith from the equation all you want.. It is what God wants that is what matters.

 

[AustinC]

Let use your own passage

No, The Bible says:
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

It is by Grace we have been saved (made alive) and what does paul say? we are saved (made live or born again) by GRACE THROUGH FAITH

your trying to remove faith from the equation. Even Jesus tells us, it is those who BELIEVE that will never die but has eternal life (born again) You can remove faith from the equation all you want.. It is what God wants that is what matters.

Again, here's what Paul is explicitly saying:
1) God saved you by grace alone. This is the cause of it all.
2) God gave you faith, as a gift, to believe. So, it is through faith that you believe.

Thus, we are saved by grace (cause) through faith (effect). Paul really wants you to grasp this so he adds "and that not of yourselves (you didn't cause it by exerting your own faith) it is a gift of God (faith is a gift) so you cannot boast."

Paul is metaphorically hitting you over the head with a Spiritual mallet to tell you that God saves you before you ever respond back to him.

Faith is not removed. Faith is placed as an effect. But you are putting faith as a cause, which Paul rejects and therefore I do as well.

 

[AustinC]

Here we have yet another taint so claim, but not a scintilla of biblical support.
1) Individuals are chosen for salvation "through" pre-existing "faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 God utilizes our existing faith in some way in His selection process, that is the meaning of "through."
2) Thus by necessity, the lost, those being chosen for salvation, have faith, but as with all good works, our faith is as filthy rags to God, meriting nothing. Isaiah 64:6
3) God credits (or not) the faith of some individuals as righteous faith. Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-25.
4) To suggest God bestows salvation upon those whose faith He did not credit is argument from absurdly and not worth addressing. Note one of the results attributed to those with credited faith is justification. Romans 4:23-25.

You have been addressed in the John 3:16 thread. You are utterly wrong.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again, here's what Paul is explicitly saying:
1) God saved you by grace alone. This is the cause of it all.
2) God gave you faith, as a gift, to believe. So, it is through faith that you believe.

Thus, we are saved by grace (cause) through faith (effect). Paul really wants you to grasp this so he adds "and that not of yourselves (you didn't cause it by exerting your own faith) it is a gift of God (faith is a gift) so you cannot boast."

Paul is metaphorically hitting you over the head with a Spiritual mallet to tell you that God saves you before you ever respond back to him.

Faith is not removed. Faith is placed as an effect. But you are putting faith as a cause, which Paul rejects and therefore I do as well.

Lol

Whatever my friend

By grace THROUGH FAITH.

faith is not the affect Faith is the means by which grace is applied..

 

[AustinC]

Lol

Whatever my friend

By grace THROUGH FAITH.

faith is not the affect Faith is the means by which grace is applied..

Hogwash. You make God less important than your own faith.

 

[Van]

You have been addressed in the John 3:16 thread. You are utterly wrong.

Yet another taint so post claiming there has been a biblically based rebuttal, when none exists.

 

[AustinC]

Yet another taint so post claiming there has been a biblically based rebuttal, when none exists.

^^^^^ Nope
But you refuse to address the truth of God's word I provide to you by making these silly posts.
You are utterly wrong, Van. Scripture shows you your error, yet you retranslate God's word to fit your terrible doctrine.

 

[Van]

^^^^^ Nope
But you refuse to address the truth of God's word I provide to you by making these silly posts.
You are utterly wrong, Van. Scripture shows you your error, yet you retranslate God's word to fit your terrible doctrine.

Yet another taint so post with absolutely no support from scripture.
Does scripture say God desires all men to be saved. (1 Timothy 2:4)
Does scripture say Christ paid the ransom for all? (1 Timothy 2:6)
Does scripture say those heading for destruction were bought? (2 Peter 2:1)

The answer my friends is not blowing in the wind, the answer is yes.

Does God credit the faith of some humans as righteous faith? Yes, see Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-25.

Now, folks, what do you think God does if He credits a person's faith as righteous faith. Does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 suggest an answer. Would God choose someone for salvation based on uncredited faith in the truth? I think not.

 

[AustinC]

Yet another taint so post with absolutely no support from scripture.
Does scripture say God desires all men to be saved. (1 Timothy 2:4)
Does scripture say Christ paid the ransom for all? (1 Timothy 2:6)
Does scripture say those heading for destruction were bought? (2 Peter 2:1)

The answer my friends is not blowing in the wind, the answer is yes.

Does God credit the faith of some humans as righteous faith? Yes, see Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-25.

Now, folks, what do you think God does if He credits a person's faith as righteous faith. Does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 suggest an answer. Would God choose someone for salvation based on uncredited faith in the truth? I think not.

Van, you keep hiding behind verses that I have already addressed and shown you your error. Anyone reading this thread will see how you work to deceive and speak wrongly about God and His work. You have openly declared that men have faith before salvation, which God counts as righteous. Yet, even Abraham did not have faith until God chose him and gave him a covenantal promise.

*Genesis 12:1-4*
Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” So Abram went, as the Lord had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

*Genesis 15:1,6-7,13,18-21*
After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
And he said to him, “I am the Lord who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.” Then the Lord said to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years. On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”

Notice that God chose Abraham first and God made a covenant first...then Abraham believed and God counted it as righteousness.

Van, you are utterly wrong in your assertion that humans have faith before salvation that is counted as righteous before God chooses them. The Bible tells you that you are wrong, yet you stubbornly reject what the Bible tells you. If God does not change your heart, no one here will break your stubbornness.

 

[Van]

I see yet another off topic post addressing me personally.
Did God choose Abraham for salvation before Abraham believed in God? Nope. God made a promise to Abram, and then, wait for it, "So Abram went." Thus He believed and trusted in God's promise when first mentioned.
Is it "my assertion" that we are saved by grace through faith, thus our pre-existing faith is utilized by God for salvation? Nope just read Ephesians 2:8, or Galatians 3:14, or Galatians 3:26 or on and on.