• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Bread Worship

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Matt Black said:
Oh I see: so Ignatius and Justin were pagans, then? So these pagans were dragged to their martyrdoms for their pagan beliefs by other pagans, were they? I guess Christ was wrong when he said "a house divided against itself cannot stand", was he?
You just parrotted what mrtummus just said. I simply defined words. You are the ones drawing conclusions; not me. I didn't judge their salvation; you did. If that is what you think of them; then so be it.
As you observed from my work above, the modern day meaning of the word "The Eucharist" is not found in our English Bible (KJV), nor is it found in the Greek NT in the context that you are looking for. The Greek word is found, but only in the context of giving of thanks or thankfulness. I am not even certain that these authors (ECF) that you quote are quoted accurately. Remember you are quoting another translation. Let me emphasize the English word "The Eucharist" did not even exist at their time as the English language itself did not exist during that time. How can you even be sure that what you are reading is actually what was said, let alone accurately translated?

As for me, I know that what I hold in my hands is the Word of God. We have over 5,000 extant MSS attesting to its veracity. How many do we have of Justin Martyr's writings?
I would rather stick to the writings of an infallible God, rather than the writings of a fallible man. The ECF, and their writings don't hold much value to me. They contradict each other, are not in agreement with each other, and in fact, adhere to heresies that today would not be tolerated.
 

Chemnitz

New Member
DHK said:
They contradict each other, are not in agreement with each other, and in fact, adhere to heresies that today would not be tolerated.

For a person who refuses to read the Early Church Father's works that is quite the statement.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Chemnitz said:
For a person who refuses to read the Early Church Father's works that is quite the statement.
I don't read them extensively. But I have read enough of them to know what they believe.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
DHK said:
You just parrotted what mrtummus just said. I simply defined words. You are the ones drawing conclusions; not me. I didn't judge their salvation; you did. If that is what you think of them; then so be it.
As you observed from my work above, the modern day meaning of the word "The Eucharist" is not found in our English Bible (KJV), nor is it found in the Greek NT in the context that you are looking for. The Greek word is found, but only in the context of giving of thanks or thankfulness. I am not even certain that these authors (ECF) that you quote are quoted accurately. Remember you are quoting another translation. Let me emphasize the English word "The Eucharist" did not even exist at their time as the English language itself did not exist during that time. How can you even be sure that what you are reading is actually what was said, let alone accurately translated?
Oh come on,you know exactly what I meant: you were suggesting that the term 'eucharist', which is a Greek word used by both Justin and Ignatius amongst other ECFs, was a 'pagan' word. That implies that you believe that Justin and Ignatius were pagans. I was simply highlighting how ridiculous that belief is.
 

lori4dogs

New Member
D28guy said: "The problem with the rosary is that the primary focus is MARY, as opposed to GOD. I believe the ratio is something like 10 or 15 vain repititions of the "Hail Mary" to every 1 vain repetition to God.(the Our Father)

If Mary is not treated as a goddess, what are they doing praying 10-15 prayers directed to MARY, to every 1 prayed to God???"

Actually, the primary focus of the rosary is Jesus! The rosary is prayed 'contempletively' and not in a way that most protestants know or understand. For example, the 'mysteries' to be meditated upon in the 'sorrowful' mysteries each involve the death and resurrection of our Lord. I know some people who do not recite the Hail Mary while saying the rosary but use what is know as the 'Jesus Prayer' which is "Jesus, Son of God, have mercy upon me as sinner". Again, it is a meditation on our Lord. BTW, most of the Hail Mary is derived directly from Holy Scripture.

Also, I see nothing wrong with giving the Blessed Virgin the honor due her. She is indeed the Mother of God (Theotokos) and Lukes gospel delclares that "from henceforth, all generations shall call me blessed".

Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans and others have long recognized that the Virgin Mary indeed is deserving of honor. She said, "be it done unto me according to your word" which is the kind of response to God I want to give.

The teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is contrary to what you say it is about treating Mary as a goddess. The Catholic Catechism which is the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church flaty contradicts your claim.

Thanks for responding
 

lori4dogs

New Member
Cowboymatt"

You are correct, but again you must understand that the rosary is a meditation. A person recites twelve prayers that for a decade of the rosary. I meditate on the mystery (such as Jesus brought before Pilate) associated with that decade. If I merely recite the Hail Mary, out loud or silently, I'm missing the focus of the rosary. It is not 'vain repetition' of prayers, but a meditation on God's grace. I do understand why many protestants might view reciting the rosary as useless and meaningless. If the rosary become mere formula, then I agree that it would become the meaningless repetition that Jesus forbids in Matthew 6:7

Look at Psalm 136. It is a litany meant to be sung in the temple with a recurring refrain of 'His mercy endures forever'. Sometimes in the Psalm the refrain begins before the sentence is finished which would make it more repetitious than the rosary although this Psalm was written under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
cowboymatt said:
Isn't the Hail Mary a prayer asking Mary to pray for the one praying?

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen."

Yep - 6 years of Catholic school - still can do it from memory.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If you are "meditating" on Jesus, then why are you saying words that are very different than anything about Jesus and what you're meditating on? That just makes it vain repetitions because you're not even thinking of what you're saying!
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Meditation - at least the Christian variety - happens on a number of levels. For example, you can be saying one set of words on a particular subject whilst thinking about a different subject
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Matt Black said:
Oh come on,you know exactly what I meant: you were suggesting that the term 'eucharist', which is a Greek word used by both Justin and Ignatius amongst other ECFs, was a 'pagan' word. That implies that you believe that Justin and Ignatius were pagans. I was simply highlighting how ridiculous that belief is.
These are your conclusions not mine, and quite frankly I don't know how you come up with them. Let's look point by point at what I said.
1. Justin and Ignatius used the term "Eucharist" as you (the RCC, et. al.) do today, or so you suppose.
2. The English language wasn't even invented at that period of time and they wrote in Greek, so isn't it possible that your suppositions and even your translational work is wrong.
3. The Greek word, as demonstrated above, is never once translated "The Eucharist," in the way that you use it or want it to be used. It is always used in the sense of thankfulness or in giving of thanks. It has nothing to do with a Communion Service--ever.

Now, you falsely conclude that I am accusing Justin and Ignatius as heretics. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I rather charge you with corrupting what Justin and Ignatius have actually said, with having corrupt translations, unreliable translations, and reading into words meanings that are not there. There is no possible way that a person can get "The Eucharist" as in today's meaning of it, our of the Greek word eucharisto or eucharistew. It is impossible. I have not attacked the ECF in this manner but rather your interpretation of them.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
lori4dogs said:
So you are saying the Catholic Church in Spain and Portugal teaches that people should worship Mary? If you are going to make this claim then you should be able to provide evidence. Can you?


"Mary is all powerful with her divine Son who grants all graces to mankind through her" - Pope Benedict XV, Fausto Appetente Die

"All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God." - Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary

Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; The Glories of Mary. (pp 180-181)

"She is omnipotent, because by her prayers she obtains whatever SHE wills. (The Glories of Mary pp 182)

"With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to [bvenerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God[/b], conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because,
while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race." - Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of our people." – Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Zenas
"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes." Written by Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of John the Apostle, 110 A.D.


This does not tell us where it is written -- what letter? What book?

It is just a "Claim" that Ignatius did it - and he is "supposed to be infallible"?


More to the point --


RC Eucharist is “idolatry” (if non-Catholics are right) according to the RCC.

The Faith Explained – A bestselling RC commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II by Leo J. Trese is promoted as “A standard reference for every Catholic home and library”. Complete with Papal Imprimatur -- Quote from page 350-351
Parenthetical inserts “mine”

The Faith Explained – Page 350
“On this, the last night before His death, Jesus is making His last will and testament.
Ibid. Page 351
A last will is no place for figurative speech (in the Catholic opinion); under the best of circumstances (human) courts sometimes have difficulty in interpreting a testator’s intentions aright, even without the confusion of symbolic language. Moreover, since Jesus is God, He knew that as a result of His words that night, untold millions of people would be worshipping him through the centuries under the appearance of the bread. if he would not really be present under those appearances, the worshippers would be adoring a mere piece of bread, and would be guilty of idolatry,. Certainly that is something that God Himself would set the stage for, by talking in obscure figurative speech.

IF Jesus was using a metaphor; if what He really meant was, “This bread is a sort of SYMBOL of My Body, and this is a SYMBOL of My Blood (not yet spilled – so they were not then participating in sacrifice); hereafter, any time that My followers get together and partake of the bread and wine like this, they will be honoring Me and representing My death”; if that IS what Jesus meant (as many protestants claim), then the apostles got Him all wrong (in the Catholic option here). And through their misunderstanding (can the Catholic document blame the Apostles instead of the Catholic church’s tradition that interjects this RC heresy?), mankind has for centuries worshiped A PIECE OF BREAD as God”


How SERIOUS do they take this worship of bread “as though it were a god”??
 

D28guy

New Member
Lori,

You said...

"Actually, the primary focus of the rosary is Jesus!"

No, its not. I was raised Catholic, and went through 8 years of Parochial school. And part of our training was regularly going over to the church next door to the school and doing the rosary ritual.

The prayers directed to Mary out number the prayers directed to God 10-15 to 1. Yes, we would briefly acknowledge different aspects of Christ "passion"...but then turn right around and start our vain repetitons of prayers offered to Mary, not God.

"The rosary is prayed 'contempletively' and not in a way that most protestants know or understand. For example, the 'mysteries' to be meditated upon in the 'sorrowful' mysteries each involve the death and resurrection of our Lord. I know some people who do not recite the Hail Mary while saying the rosary but use what is know as the 'Jesus Prayer' which is "Jesus, Son of God, have mercy upon me as sinner"

Why would you want to beg Jesus to have mercy on you? Jesus had mercy on us, and saved us, and caused us to be secured for heaven 2000 years ago when our sins were placed on Him and He took our death penalty?.

"Again, it is a meditation on our Lord."

No...the prayers to Mary out number the prayers to God by a huge, HUGE amount.

"BTW, most of the Hail Mary is derived directly from Holy Scripture."

Do they include the scripture that says "You shall have no other Gods before me"? (and obviously that includes "Goddesses") Or the scriptures that teach us that there ia ONE mediator and intercessor between God and man...the Lord Jesus Christ?

"Also, I see nothing wrong with giving the Blessed Virgin the honor due her.

Neither do we. She was very blessed to be used of God to bring Christ into the world.

"She is indeed the Mother of God"...

She was the *earthly*, and *surrogote* mother of Jesus Christ. But the Title "Mother of God" is blasphemous. That has been proven over and over again on other threads here on BB. God created Mary, so Mary has no buisiness having the title, "Mother of God". The motivation for the Title "Mother of God" is completly different that what you think, or what the Catholic Church tells people.

"(Theotokos)"

Her name was Mary. There is no justification for any special "Title". All that does is "lift her up" inordinately.

"...and Lukes gospel delclares that "from henceforth, all generations shall call me blessed"."

And we evangelicals have been calling her blessed for 2000 years now. I wish the Catholic Church and other like minded groups would cease their goddess worship and join us in simply acknowledging that she was blessed.


"Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans and others have long recognized that the Virgin Mary indeed is deserving of honor. She said, "be it done unto me according to your word" which is the kind of response to God I want to give."

Well, are you a follower of Mary, or Jesus? We have abundant evidence in Gods scriptures that we are to have a submissive attitude regarding Gods will in our lives, without bringing Mary into it in the least bit.

"The teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is contrary to what you say it is about treating Mary as a goddess."

They've got you "hook, line, and sinker" Lori, as the old saying goes...unfortunetly.

" The Catholic Catechism which is the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church flaty contradicts your claim."

No it doesnt. It confirms it.

Here is an excerpt from the Catholic Catechism

Everything I've bolded is blasphemous and idolatrous, and serves to strongly perpetuate Goddess Worship...

"965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."504 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."505
. . . also in her Assumption


966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507
. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)508 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."509

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510

970"Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512

II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH

972 After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints,"516 the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.
In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.517

IN BRIEF

973 By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.

974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.

975 "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG # 15)."


Very sadly,

Mike
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Zenas

Active Member
BobRyan said:
[/I]

This does not tell us where it is written -- what letter? What book?

It is just a "Claim" that Ignatius did it - and he is "supposed to be infallible"?[
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, Chapters 6 & 7. No, I don't think anyone would say Ignatius is infallible but living at the time he did, he would have to have better understanding of the teachings of Christ and His apostles than we can have 2,000 years later.
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
Zenas said:
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, Chapters 6 & 7. No, I don't think anyone would say Ignatius is infallible but living at the time he did, he would have to have better understanding of the teachings of Christ and His apostles than we can have 2,000 years later.




GE
You should have a better understanding of the Scriptures than Ignatius had, for several compelling reasons that should be obvious to yourself. Fewer years away from the time of Christ doesn't bring you one bit nearer to Him or the truth about Him. If you reason like this, Justin should be almost as close to Christ's truth as Ignatius had been, yet I find the case the opposite.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Justin is not only about 20 years further from truth; he is 20 centuries further away than Ignatius.
And what exactly gives you the authority to say that your interpretation of Scripture is better than Justin's?
 
Top