Brethren and Sisterin

[Van]

If we look at the NASB and its use of G80 to refer to members of the family of God in a non-specific way, we can consider updating the translation using sibling(s) to better present the actual message of God.

Here is a list of prospective candidates for modification:

Matthew 18:15, 21, 35; 23:8; 25:40
Mark 13:12
Luke 18:29, 22:32;

Romans 12:10; 14:10, 13, 15, 21;
1 Corinthians 5:11; 6:6; 8:11, 13;
1 Thess. 4:6
2 Thess 3:6, 3:15;
Philemon 1:16

James 1:9, 4:11;

1 John 2:9, 10, 11; 3:10, 15, 17; 4:21; 5:16;​

 

[Greektim]

If we look at the NASB and its use of G80 to refer to members of the family of God in a non-specific way, we can consider updating the translation using sibling(s) to better present the actual message of God.

Here is a list of prospective candidates for modification:

Matthew 18:15, 21, 35; 23:8; 25:40
Mark 13:12
Luke 18:29, 22:32;

Romans 12:10; 14:10, 13, 15, 21;
1 Corinthians 5:11; 6:6; 8:11, 13;
1 Thess. 4:6
2 Thess 3:6, 3:15;
Philemon 1:16

James 1:9, 4:11;

1 John 2:9, 10, 11; 3:10, 15, 17; 4:21; 5:16;​

I love how you keep spouting how "siblings" is better but not demonstrate why nor answer the reasons against that I've offered. And by "love" I mean "hate"... see the difference in denotation and connotation?

 

[Van]

Another very common usage of G80 refers fellow Jews or fellow countrymen. So if we use "brethren" for fellow Jews or fellow countrymen, then siblings would be used exclusively when fellow believers regardless of sex or ethnicity are in view.

Now when the reference is to fellow Jews who are believers, I think we should stick with brethren, leaving the ambiguity to be resolved by the reader. Thus Acts 9:30 would remain "brethren." (See also Acts 11:1)

There are many, dozens at least, verses where brethren appears in the NASB referring to believers, too many to bother to list.

 

[Van]

Greektim, you have posted that there are "relational connotations" expressed by "brothers and sisters" that are not present when "siblings" is used. And now you want me to address this "preference." I will leave you to ride your wheels within wheels contraption.

And as I have explained, the reason I believe siblings is better at presenting the actual message of God is that in Christ there is no difference, no male and female, nor Jew and Gentile.

 

[Greektim]

Greektim, you have posted that there are "relational connotations" expressed by "brothers and sisters" that are not present when "siblings" is used. And now you want me to address this "preference." I will leave you to ride your wheels within wheels contraption.

And as I have explained, the reason I believe siblings is better at presenting the actual message of God is that in Christ there is no difference, no male and female, nor Jew and Gentile.

So you don't believe in male only eldership? Women preach to you? After all, "in Christ there is no difference, no male and female."

Here's the deal. I have given reasons for my preference. And I have given reasons against yours. All you have done is stated your preference. At least your use of Galatians is the start of making an argument for your preference. Some preferences or opinions are better because they have more validity. Yours don't have much b/c you don't offer much to support them.

 

[Van]

Here is the deal, you simply object to my every post because you like to bust on me. The banality of your points is there for all to see.

When a poster says, "So you believe..." stand by for some unbiblical absurdity designed to derail actual discussion of the topic. The bible is clear, men have been given the role of spiritual leadership with the family and within our local assemblies. Completely off topic.

Another very common usage of G80 refers fellow Jews or fellow countrymen. So if we use "brethren" for fellow Jews or fellow countrymen, then siblings would be used exclusively when fellow believers regardless of sex or ethnicity are in view.

Now when the reference is to fellow Jews who are believers, I think we should stick with brethren, leaving the ambiguity to be resolved by the reader. Thus Acts 9:30 would remain "brethren." (See also Acts 11:1)

There are many, dozens at least, verses where brethren appears in the NASB referring to believers, too many to bother to list.

Here are the “too many to list” references:
Acts 6:3; 15:1, 2,3,23,32, 33, 36, 40; 16:2, 40; 17:10, 14; 18:18, 27; 21:7
Romans 1:13; 7:1, 4: 8:12, 29: 10:1: 11:25: 12:1; 15:14, 30: 16:14, 17;
1 Corinthians 1:10, 11, 26; 2:1; 3:1; 4:6; 6:5, 8; 11:33, 12:1: 14:6, 20, 26, 39; 15:1, 6, 31, 50. 58: 16:11, 12, 15, 20:
2 Corinthians 1:8, 8:1, 23,: 9:3, 5; 11:9, 26; 13:11
Galatians 1:2, 11; 2:4; 3:5; 4:12, 28, 31; 5:11, 13; 6:1, 18;
Ephesians 6:23;
Philippians 1:12, 14; 3:1, 13, 17; 4:1, 8, 21;
Colossians 1:2; 4:15
1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2:1, 9, 14, 17; 3:7; 4:1, 9, 10, 13; 5:1, 4, 12, 14, 25, 26, 27:
2 Thessalonians 1:3, 2:1, 13, 15; 3:1, 6, 13;
1 Timothy 4:6, 6:2;
2 Timothy 4:21
Hebrews and James would require more study to discern whether siblings or brethren is in view.

 

[Rippon]

There are many, dozens at least, verses where brethren appears in the NASB referring to believers, too many to bother to list.

Then why not have it rendered "believers" then? It makes sense. The words "brethren" just doesn't work --and certainly not your super-silly "siblings" suggestion.

 

[Greektim]

Here is the deal, you simply object to my every post because you like to bust on me. The banality of your points is there for all to see.

When a poster says, "So you believe..." stand by for some unbiblical absurdity designed to derail actual discussion of the topic. The bible is clear, men have been given the role of spiritual leadership with the family and within our local assemblies. Completely off topic.


Here are the “too many to list” references:
Acts 6:3; 15:1, 2,3,23,32, 33, 36, 40; 16:2, 40; 17:10, 14; 18:18, 27; 21:7
Romans 1:13; 7:1, 4: 8:12, 29: 10:1: 11:25: 12:1; 15:14, 30: 16:14, 17;
1 Corinthians 1:10, 11, 26; 2:1; 3:1; 4:6; 6:5, 8; 11:33, 12:1: 14:6, 20, 26, 39; 15:1, 6, 31, 50. 58: 16:11, 12, 15, 20:
2 Corinthians 1:8, 8:1, 23,: 9:3, 5; 11:9, 26; 13:11
Galatians 1:2, 11; 2:4; 3:5; 4:12, 28, 31; 5:11, 13; 6:1, 18;
Ephesians 6:23;
Philippians 1:12, 14; 3:1, 13, 17; 4:1, 8, 21;
Colossians 1:2; 4:15
1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2:1, 9, 14, 17; 3:7; 4:1, 9, 10, 13; 5:1, 4, 12, 14, 25, 26, 27:
2 Thessalonians 1:3, 2:1, 13, 15; 3:1, 6, 13;
1 Timothy 4:6, 6:2;
2 Timothy 4:21
Hebrews and James would require more study to discern whether siblings or brethren is in view.

It's not at all off topic to bring up male headship when your argument for "siblings" is that there is no distinction between male and female. And I'm accused of banality?

Like I said, I want you to just interact with my points and offer some of your own (and don't accuse me of going off topic when you do and I actually debunk them).

 

[Van]

I see the poster continues to claim changing brethren and brother(s) to siblings when non-specific members of God's family are in view mysteriously undercuts the passages indicating the role of men in spiritual leadership. Twaddle, folks, just twaddle.

Returning to topic, the Greek word (G80) has within its range of meanings "a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection."
Another Greek word means believer, and that word does not directly indicate the relational bond of affection with the usage of G80.

Bottom line, the arguments against changing "brother(s)" or "brethren" to "sibling(s) when non-specific members of God's family are in view that have been posted are:

1) People are accustomed to using brother and brethren and are too provincial to accept sibling. They will react with "that is just silly."
2) Sibling(s) does not have the same "relational connotation" as "brother(s) or brethren" claiming the idea from the text is exclusively men. This view seems to reflect paternal bias, and not the inclusiveness of Christ.​

 

[Greektim]

I see the poster continues to claim changing brethren and brother(s) to siblings when non-specific members of God's family are in view mysteriously undercuts the passages indicating the role of men in spiritual leadership. Twaddle, folks, just twaddle.

Returning to topic, the Greek word (G80) has within its range of meanings "a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection."
Another Greek word means believer, and that word does not directly indicate the relational bond of affection with the usage of G80.

Bottom line, the arguments against changing "brother(s)" or "brethren" to "sibling(s) when non-specific members of God's family are in view that have been posted are:

1) People are accustomed to using brother and brethren and are too provincial to accept sibling. They will react with "that is just silly."
2) Sibling(s) does not have the same "relational connotation" as "brother(s) or brethren" claiming the idea from the text is exclusively men. This view seems to reflect paternal bias, and not the inclusiveness of Christ.​

Not sure if you have been following me here, but I've been arguing for "brothers and sisters" over everything else. So there is no paternal bias. That negates the point you tried to make in #2. And I haven't used #1.

You can use terms like twaddle all you want. The fact remains that your argument for "siblings" is that it breaks down the male/female division that is found in Christ only then to later say there is a division in church leadership and family roles. That is twaddle. I am advocating "brothers and sisters" for 1 greek word because it bests connotes the close relationship of fellow believers in the spiritual family of God that the word has. "Siblings" just doesn't get it done. And that is standard American English.

PS-You lose points by referring to me as "the poster". That's pathetic, Van. (and yes I just pontificated that)

 

[Van]

More from the poster who reverses his arguments with every post. Where is the male/female division that is found in Christ? The opposite is taught, there is no distinction between male and female in Christ!!

I am advocating "brothers and sisters" for 1 greek word because it bests connotes the close relationship of fellow believers in the spiritual family of God that the word has.

Imagine for a moment that James and John are "brothers and sisters!"

No, what is really being said is that where I have indicated "siblings" should be used, Greektim says use "brothers and sisters" instead.

Now imagine someone addressing a group of men, with the "brothers and sisters" translation. Twaddle times two.

 

[Rippon]

People are accustomed to using brother and brethren and are too provincial to accept sibling. They will react with "that is just silly."

You make no sense here. I advocate using 'brothers and sisters' --not 'brother(s)' and 'brethern' --so how provincial can I be? I say your suggestion of 'siblings' is super-silly for reasons that GT has given.

Your translational suggestions have a history of gross inadequacy (to be polite). Your suggestions have been 'rendered inactive'

 

[Rippon]

Imagine for a moment that James and John are "brothers and sisters!"

You are being consistently super-silly. Who here has argued that two flesh and blood brothers should be called anything but brothers?!

Now imagine someone addressing a group of men, with the "brothers and sisters" translation. Twaddle times two.

You are solidifying your off-beat reputation on the BB. No one advocates your twaddle.

 

[TCassidy]

Unfortunately this issue has nothing to do with translation. The translation of αδελφοι is "brothers."

The problem is not with the translation but with the growing ignorance of American Christians who are not only ignorant of Greek grammar and syntax but are equally ignorant of English grammar and syntax.

In English, as well as Greek, when the gender of a person referred to with a noun or pronoun is unknown or inclusive the use of the masculine noun or pronoun is grammatically correct.

When I was in high school (1961) four years of English were required to graduate. Additionally, at least one year of a foreign language was also required to graduate. The school I attended offered Latin, Greek, Spanish, and German. I chose Latin and German. (While in "bonehead" Greek in seminary I wished I had opted for Greek vice German!)

Today, the most enrolled class for college freshman is Remedial English. What does that tell you?

 

[Greektim]

Hey TCassidy... do they have a course in remedial reading and thinking??? Sign Van up!

More from the poster who reverses his arguments with every post. Where is the male/female division that is found in Christ? The opposite is taught, there is no distinction between male and female in Christ!!



Imagine for a moment that James and John are "brothers and sisters!"

No, what is really being said is that where I have indicated "siblings" should be used, Greektim says use "brothers and sisters" instead.

Now imagine someone addressing a group of men, with the "brothers and sisters" translation. Twaddle times two.

I have not "reversed" anything. Even the poll options gave away my bias! Even the name of the title gave it away!!! "Reverse" you say? Ignorance my reply! Prove you don't need remedial reading and show me where I was arguing for translating it "brothers/brethren". Of course that would require that you engage with my actual ideas.

And of the places where the writers of Scriptures were addressing their audience, are you implying that it was an all male audience? That is the point!!! There is no letter to just James and John. The letters were written to congregations. And if you read Acts carefully, you'll notice that women were being converted quicker than men.

And enough of your misuse of Galatians!!! Yes, male and female both gain entrance into the New Covenant Community the same - through Jesus! That doesn't negate that this is not a difference. You keep talking out of both sides of your mouth (or out the hole at the other end of your body). You say there is no distinction between men and women, and then you say "of course there is a distinction". You are the one putting "anal" in the banality of this entire discussion.

And if you think this is harsh, this is just telling how it is. You need some tough love b/c the people cawdling (sp?) you right now aren't helping.

Now can you for once answer my denotation/connotation argument? Or are you going to continue to swirl around the toilet bowl of obfuscation??? If the latter, then don't bother. I'll just ignore you. You clearly have nothing to offer in the way of discussion. You don't even address your comments in the 2nd person. It is always in the 3rd person. That is a monologue!!! Tells us all what we need to know about you, Van. You are not here to dialogue. You are not here to learn. You are here to diatribe and obfuscate.

:wavey:

PS


4 Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest you be like him yourself.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.

I've been doing v. 5. I think it is high time I practice v. 4.

 

[Van]

Lets see, the vulgarity of some posters on a Christian board is amazing.

1) Both Mr. Rippon and Greektim, think "brothers and sisters" is better than "siblings." Except when I refer to a verse, then they want brothers.

2) In the verses cited, "siblings" better communicates the actual message of God, where non-specific members of God's family are in view.

3) There is no distinction between men and women in Christ.

 

[Greektim]

Lets see, the vulgarity of some posters on a Christian board is amazing.

If Paul did it, so will I. SKUBALON!!!!

1) Both Mr. Rippon and Greektim, think "brothers and sisters" is better than "siblings." Except when I refer to a verse, then they want brothers.

I'll admit, I don't know what verse you are talking about. But I certainly haven't been saying that the word in its plural form should always be translated one way or another. I have consistently been arguing that when it is being used of believers of both sexes, then "brothers and sisters" is best.

2) In the verses cited, "siblings" better communicates the actual message of God, where non-specific members of God's family are in view.

Still don't know where you are talking about. But I don't think it does since it is not a relational word. You might as well say "kinsmen".

3) There is no distinction between men and women in Christ.

Except roles of male eldership and male headship in the home... but that is twaddle according to Van. This argument holds as much water as a thimble.

 

[Rippon]

1) Both Mr. Rippon and Greektim, think "brothers and sisters" is better than "siblings." Except when I refer to a verse, then they want brothers.

You live in bizarro world. It all depends on the context, as I have consistently hammered away at you for ages.

The use of the term 'brothers' is perfectly acceptable in certain contexts.

The NIV is my favorite translation. I will cite the occasions in which it is used in just two books to straighten you out.

Matt.
1:2,11
4:18,21
12:46,47,49
13:55
20:24
22:25
23:8
25:40
28:10

Acts
1:14
2:37
7:2,13,26
11:12
13:15
14:2
15:7,23
22:1
23:5,6

 

[Van]

The use of the term 'brothers' is perfectly acceptable in certain contexts.

The NIV is my favorite translation. I will cite the occasions in which it is used in just two books to straighten you out.
Matt.
1:2,11
4:18,21
12:46,47,49
13:55
20:24
22:25
23:8
25:40
28:10

Acts
1:14
2:37
7:2,13,26
11:12
13:15
14:2
15:7,23
22:1
23:5,6

So based on this we can construct translation principles:

1) If the context refers to blood relations, then brother(s) should be used for G80, and sister(s) for G79.
2) If the context refers to specific individuals, as members of God's family, then use brother or sister as indicated. See 2 John 1:13.
3) If the context refers to non-specific members of God's family, then use siblings.
4)when the reference is to fellow Jews who are believers, I think we should stick with brethren, leaving the ambiguity to be resolved by the reader. Thus Acts 9:30 would remain "brethren." (See also Acts 11:1)​

As I indicated the use of brother(s) for G80 is appropriate in many cases. Note that in my lists of verses where "sibling(s) would better convey the message almost none of the verses were listed by Mr. Rippon, with two exceptions!

In Matthew 23:8, Jesus is speaking to crowds and His disciples thus a mixed group of believers and so siblings is superior to the NIV (and NASB) brothers.

In Matthew 25:40, the NIV has brothers and sisters, and the NRSV has "members of My family." Thus siblings is superior to just "brothers."

 

[Rippon]

So based on this we can construct translation principles:

Be careful. When you say "so" there isn't usually a logical consequence that can be drawn.

If the context refers to non-specific members of God's family, then use siblings.
​

Why? Why not use "believers" for example?

when the reference is to fellow Jews who are believers, I think we should stick with brethren, leaving the ambiguity to be resolved by the reader. Thus Acts 9:30 would remain "brethren." (See also Acts 11:1)

When the reference is to believers use the word believers. So simple a child could grasp the idea.
​

In Matthew 25:40, the NIV has brothers and sisters, and the NRSV has "members of My family." Thus siblings is superior to just "brothers."

Because you have said so? Where are your supporters?