Building up the body

[Brother Bob]

Oh, this is great. When someone confronts you about your belief then they are calling you names. I said someone was ignorant about making wine by hand and was accused of calling them ignorant when in fact all I was saying they didn't know people could make wine by hand. Others on here make mockery of some because of their answers but its the ones who don't believe in acohol drinking that is guilty of the body of Christ. It seems to me when one cannot win an argument and is willing to say that it has been proved there are fermented and unfermented wine that was in olden times and want an excuse to drink even though maybe moderately find fault with the others as tearing down the body.
I got news for you. It takes two to argue. The times I see someone is confronted usually is because they have injected themselves into the debate on one side or another. You are not going to hear word like "yes honey" when debating an issue such as "wine" in the Bible.
There are certain topics in the Bible that bring out very strong arguments and we all know which ones they are and if we don't want to hear some rebuking then we should stay out of that debate. There were three threads on wine and now maybe four. That tells you just how hotly debated they are, so beware and toughen your skin.
The best thing to do is quit telling our young it is ok to drink.

 

[Helen]

Blackbird, I KNOW the problems of moderating here! I was a moderator here for several years before I had to resign due to time and other commitments (being married to Barry is not a boring life!).

In the meantime, I would like to tell a story of something that happened to me when I was a moderator for Matt Slick over at CARM (I don't think CARM exists now, but it was a major site for a number of years). I was moderator of several forums, but primarily of the creation/evolution forum. As is common on those cr/ev forums, the evolution mockers came on in full, mocking creation and Bible believers. Because I was a moderator I tried my best to remain calm, factual, reasonable, and nice.

One fellow was truly horrid. There was little I could say that would not get some kind of mocking response from him. Then he was off the forum. Just disappeared. I remember sort of breathing a sigh of relief.

About a year later I got a private email from him. It said that he had returned to the faith of his childhood and wanted to thank me for that. It was not what I had said regarding creation and my faith, but the WAY I had said it. It was not the words that won him back to Christ, but the attitude.

I have never forgotten that lesson. Just wanted to share it.

Yes, I know what it is to stand up consistently and strongly for the Bible. But the attitude with which you do it is what is going to turn people away from the Bible or toward it. That is what I am trying to say.

 

[ituttut]

Debating is one thing, and also it can be done with far more kindness than we see here.

I believe we all have good intensions, but we each have our own personalities. This is what makes up the Body of Christ. The Word of God while loving, is also harsh, and demanding, giving no quarter. But many of we saved sinners have some rough edges, and some not so boisterous, of which we can contrast in Peter and John. There are a good number here who do not want to be critiqued in any circumstance, no matter what the tone.

Look at the cast of characters given us in His Word. Moses was the meekest of men in his lifetime. In his personality yes, but coupled with the Word of God he could stand before anyone, doing or saying what was necessary. Can't we see this trait in others such as Joseph, John, and naturally Jesus?

Of course we are not they, but can we perhaps see ourselves in Jeremiah? This man with a kind and caring heart, not wishing to offend any, was chosen of God to proclaim the Word. God tells Jeremiah to not remain a "babe". Grow-up He says and don't be afraid to speak my Words. Jeremiah lived in a time like ours I believe. God's nation was going down the drain. There are signs the Christian belief is headed in the same direction.

Many times when we make a stand, it is unpleasant to others. Some here have made statements as to my "heresy", complete misunderstanding of the Word, and even have me already in the lake of fire. It doesn't faze me. I understand people's frustration in myopic thought and study. I was one until I actually believed what I was reading. My eyes were opened when I believed such verses as "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words", Ephesians 3:1-3. I don't care whether teaching, conversing, debating on BB, Carm, MissionforChrist, or other discussion forums, the venom will come forth when presenting the gospel of Paul.

Ripping others up is another.

And even though this is a debate forum, take a look through the other parts of BB -- not a lot of positive. In 1 Corinthians we are told that we should use our gifts, our talents, to build up the body of Christ, not tear it down.

Yes as long as we understand some of those gifts of "kingdom availability" are not accessible to we today. Really what we are left with is I Corinthians 1:17, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

Personally, I would like to encourage the people here to let the Holy Spirit do His own job of convicting of sin and for us to be far more obedient to God's Word in encouraging one another, even when we do debate. Am I innocent? Not at all. Has the Holy Spirit convicted me of some of my attitudes? Yes.

You are honest, forthright, and I hope you don't change in being positive in you presentations and answers, and if we kick-up dirt into someone's eyes on our way to the finish line, that's something we can't worry about. Hopefully they'll see what puts us in the position to win the race. It's so very simple. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved. After that we are to leave the interpretation to the one who wrote it. We are not to do the interpreting, but "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth", II Timothy 2:15.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

this will get buried pretty fast, I am sure, but for what it's worth --

Take a look at the threads on this section. Just about every one is meant to tear down a people, a group, a belief. That's sick, folks. That is totally worldly.

I agree. This is especially true when you slander five point calvinists by saying their belief teaches that there is no reason to witness and kills evangelism. Of course, I am sure you don't see the sickness and worldliness when you do it.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[gb93433]

It seems to me when one cannot win an argument and is willing to say that it has been proved there are fermented and unfermented wine that was in olden times and want an excuse to drink even though maybe moderately find fault with the others as tearing down the body.

In one of your last posts I took a look at what you wrote in response to 1and then used a Greek concordance to take a look at the verses where the same word was used. I have asked you to take a look at a those verses which use the word for wine. I have not seen any response to that except to reread your opinion here.

 

[gb93433]

I agree. This is especially true when you slander five point calvinists by saying their belief teaches that there is no reason to witness and kills evangelism. Of course, I am sure you don't see the sickness and worldliness when you do it.

Years ago I heard that from some Calvinists right out of their mouth. I saw them also lead several students who were sharing their faith on campus astray to not share their faith with anyone. Fortunately a number eventually saw through that and turned back to where they once left.

 

[ituttut]

Helen,

Despite our doctrinal differences, you are one of those I highly respect around here, and this is not meant to be impertinent, or whatever else comes near to impertinence.

But, which "body" is the body of Christ, really ?

A body is one well-coordinated whole with parts agreeing, united, working with, and comlementing, one another, goes one direction, works toward one goal, and has one Head.

My arms and hands go where my head and body goes, so does my eyes, ears, and feet.

With the often referred to "body of Christ", one finds pentecostals, full gospels, and Baptists of varying colors, who go each and every direction.

Gosh, Baptists could not even agree with one another, and even in churches, members tend to go this way and that.

So, where is the "body" ?

I think that term is very abstract.

Quick answer before leaving for benevolent meeting, and then to "remember Him".

Spiritually in His Body as we live, united in Him. But as you say we are certainly not so down here in Our Bodies. But someday………

I'm sorry to say, I believe we could be closer down here, but so very many show signs of being in the "Kingdom Church", and not the "Body Church".

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Quick answer before leaving for benevolent meeting, and then to "remember Him".

Spiritually in His Body as we live, united in Him. But as you say we are certainly not so down here in Our Bodies. But someday………

I'm sorry to say, I believe we could be closer down here, but so very many show signs of being in the "Kingdom Church", and not the "Body Church".

There is no such thing as a 'Kingdom Church'.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Years ago I heard that from some Calvinists right out of their mouth. I saw them also lead several students who were sharing their faith on campus astray to not share their faith with anyone. Fortunately a number eventually saw through that and turned back to where they once left.

And there it is folks. Irrefutable proof that all Calvinists are against evangelism and are out to lead the Church astray.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Helen]

Joseph, please don't hijack this thread. Especially with your rather nasty comments. The whole point of this thread is to ask for, at the very least, common courtesy. I'm asking -- and I think the Bible does, too -- for a whole lot more, actually, but simple courtesy would be a great start.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Well, Brother Bob, we agree on at least one thing, and that's the use of the word "ignorant".

ig‧no‧rant  /ˈɪgnərənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ig-ner-uhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.
[Origin: 1325–75; ME ignora(u)nt < L ignōrant- (s. of ignōrāns), prp. of ignōrāre to ignore; see -ant]

Ituttut, I'm glad you see the different uses of the word "ekklesia" (church). So many confuse the body with the church, due to English uses of words. I like English, as it's probably the easiest language to learn (but difficult to master), but it's sometimes to easy to confuse things because of the ease of learning it.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Edify

Ro 14:19 (nKJV):
Therefore let us pursue the things which make
for peace and the things by which one may edify
another.

1Co 10:23 (nKJV):
All things are lawful for me, but not all things
are helpful; all things are lawful for me,
but not all things edify.

1Th 5:11 (nKJV):
Therefore comfort each other and edify one another,
just as you also are doing.

 

[Brother Bob]

In one of your last posts I took a look at what you wrote in response to 1and then used a Greek concordance to take a look at the verses where the same word was used. I have asked you to take a look at a those verses which use the word for wine. I have not seen any response to that except to reread your opinion here.

If you will please refresh my mind I will do my best to look at it.

 

[gb93433]

If you will please refresh my mind I will do my best to look at it.

The word used in 1 Timothy for wine is oinw which stems from oinos which is found in

Matt 9:17
Matt 27:34
Mark 2:22
Mark 15:23
Luke 1:15
Luke 5:37, 38
Luke 7:33
Luke 10:34
John 2:3
John 2:9, 10
John 4:46
Roma 14:21
Ephe 5:18
1Tim 3:8
1Tim 5:23
Titu 2:3
Reve 6:6
Reve 14:8
Reve 14:10
Reve 16:19
Reve 17:2
Reve 18:3
Reve 18:13
Reve 19:15

I just don't see any support for your view from the context or the typical use of the word in those days.

 

[gb93433]

And there it is folks. Irrefutable proof that all Calvinists are against evangelism and are out to lead the Church astray.

Joseph Botwinick

In essence you named Helen as a slanderer. I was simply calling you on your exaggeration. It is quite possible you felt slandered but I see no indication that she has libeled what many Calvinists believe.

Have you ever read Calvin's Institutes?

 

[Brother Bob]

The word used in 1 Timothy for wine is oinw which stems from oinos which is found in

Matt 9:17 It is really talking about two different kind of wines here. Fermented and unfermented. Although the unfermented would eventually be fermented.

Matt 27:34 Where do you get wine out of this one. If he was a wine drinker as some have said, looks like He would of drank it.

Mark 2:22 Same answer as Matt 9:17

Mark 15:23 Same answer as Matt 27:34

Luke 1:15 John never drank it but seems to be the fermented wine for its tied to strong drink.

Luke 5:37, 38 Same as Matt:9:17

Luke 7:33 Probably fermented but John didn’t drink it.

Luke 10:34 Probably fermented to kill germs but didn’t drink it.

John 2:3 Probably unfermented but would of made no difference, He didn’t drink it and they were drunk so they would not of known the difference, been there done that.

John 2:9, 10 Same as 2:3

John 4:46 Still same wine as John 2:3

Roma 14:21 Probably fermented for I would be offended if our members drank acohol, but they wouldn’t be members much longer.

Ephe 5:18 Has to be fermented but He is telling us not to drink it. Some just love the word excess though, I grant you that.

1Tim 3:8 I think the word likewise is telling us not to drink the wine same as the Bishop. If its likewise then its same and Bishop says "no wine".

1Tim 5:23 Probably unfermented to settle the stomach. Acohol may settle the mind but makes the stomach sick, been there done that.

Titu 2:3 unfermented for they had both and I say it was unfermented.

Reve 6:6 Think it was talking about the oil and the vine still being in the field, wine still grapes.

Reve 14:8 This is a fornicator that became drunk on corrupting the nations with her sin.
Reve 14:10 You gotta believe that the wine of the Wrath of God is not acohol?

Reve 16:19 again God’s wrath

Reve 17:2 Drunk on fornication surely you don’t apply this to acohol?

Reve 18:3 Her fornication again, not acohol. You surely know that if a man is not truly on the rock something will get him and its usually money or a woman. The devil knows which one to use.

Reve 18:13 If they were mourning over a fornicator it probably was fermented but not drank by Christians.

Reve 19:15 Well, I would say God help them but He won’t be too late and the Wrath of God will have began.

Many articles on the net of pros and cons for fermented and unfermented wine in the Hebrew times when the name was yayin and then onos and now wine. I didn't want to use them for I wasn't sure who had posted them so I just took the verses one by one and answered them myself. bless,

Well, I answered all and took me quite a while. You probably don’t agree but hope you appreciate the effort I put forth. Peace,

 

[gb93433]

Well, I answered all and took me quite a while. You probably don’t agree but hope you appreciate the effort I put forth. Peace,

Earlier I thought you seemed to indicate that wine was never alcoholic. I do agree with a lot of what you wrote. My point is that wine can be alcoholic. Of course context is an indicator as to whether it is or not. In our culture we might say we are making wine until the process is complete and then call it wine.

I do not see any chance of grape juice being kept without fermentation in the kind of weather in which it was harvested. Even grape jam with a lot of sugar will mold.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Brother Bob,

I definitely would have to call you on the wedding guests being drunk. The Bible does not say they were drunk, it says they had well drunk, or drunk suffciently.

If they were drunk as you said they were, then Jesus would have been disobeying His Father's command in Proverbs 23:20; Be not among winebibbers.

No, the wine at the wedding feast, both what had been provided by the governor and the wine created by Jesus, were unfermented.

 

[Brother Bob]

Diggin;
Not if he made unfermented wine. Maybe He was trying to sober them up.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Earlier I thought you seemed to indicate that wine was never alcoholic. I do agree with a lot of what you wrote. My point is that wine can be alcoholic. Of course context is an indicator as to whether it is or not. In our culture we might say we are making wine until the process is complete and then call it wine.

I do not see any chance of grape juice being kept without fermentation in the kind of weather in which it was harvested. Even grape jam with a lot of sugar will mold.

My aunt used to preserve grape jelly years ago and it never fermented.

Historical statements have already been given on how they preserved grape juice in Bible times.