Bush will veto anti-torture law after Senate revolt

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by poncho:
First define "guilty".

President Clinton, is that you?

Are we to assume in other countries as we do here in the USA that you are innocent until proven guilty or do we assume that everyone is guilty until proven innocent?

No. You're thinking of our criminal justice system.

How many innocents are you willing to use "any means necessary" on find out who is actually guilty and who is not?

I don't believe that we do this.

A confidential report in February by the International Committee of the Red Cross said that "military intelligence officers told the ICRC that in their estimate between 70 percent and 90 percent of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake." Some of those people were released by units in the field without ever being sent to a permanent prison, the report said.

In interviews since, a senior Army officer who served in Iraq criticized as overly cumbersome a process in which the Iraqi prisoners who had been labeled as security detainees, as opposed to common criminals, could be freed only by the release board.

In one incident described in detail by the senior Army officer, an aggressive round-up in September brought 57 Iraqis into custody. But a review by military intelligence officers at Abu Ghraib determined that only two of them had intelligence value and that the rest should be freed.

A U.S. general at the headquarters in Baghdad overruled that decision, and dictated that all 57 Iraqis be kept in custody. The senior Army officer quoted the general as saying something like, "I don't care if they are innocent; if we release them, they'll go out and tell their friends that we're after them."


SOURCE

Frankly, I really don't care.

They're professionals, I am not. I will defer to their judgement.

If it saves the life of one American, I really don't care if we shove bamboo shoots up every fingernail in Iraq.

My one and only priority is that innocent Americans and our allies are safe at the end of the day.

 

[rivers1222]

Mike Mck writes:

Frankly, I really don't care.

They're professionals, I am not. I will defer to their judgement.

If it saves the life of one American, I really don't care if we shove bamboo shoots up every fingernail in Iraq.

My one and only priority is that innocent Americans and our allies are safe at the end of the day.
---------------------------
I fully agree.

 

[poncho]

President Clinton, is that you?

I guess this is an attempt at either humor or insult. I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt. Nyuck nyuck.

No. You're thinking of our criminal justice system.

Actually I was asking a question. Apparently you'd rather evade giving an answer.

I don't believe that we do this.

I suppose it would do no good to ask why you believe this as in all probablity I would likely just get is another evasion.

Frankly, I really don't care.

That's sort of obvious.

They're professionals, I am not. I will defer to their judgement.

Professionals believe that you should give up more personal liberties in order for them to be better able to protect you. Something that they seem have a rather dismal record of being able to do.

If it saves the life of one American, I really don't care if we shove bamboo shoots up every fingernail in Iraq.

We don't have enough troops over there to make this dream come true. I can hook you up with the enlistment form if you'd care to help do some of the shoving.

My one and only priority is that innocent Americans and our allies are safe at the end of the day.

So, we should probably widen the conflict into more countries and kill more people to spread democracy. That should do it.

 

[ASLANSPAL]

Torture and humilation may be of the secular world
and you can justify its legality of the fallen world, but Torture and
humilation is not an American Christian Value..PERIOD.

Torture lite and humilation lite is still what it
is Torture and Humilation and from a spiritual perspective the Holy Spirt
rules the still quiet voice in our hearts.

 

[poncho]

I never noticed Jesus saying shove bamboo up every fingernail of your enemy. He had another strange way of treating enemies.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by poncho:
Apparently you'd rather evade giving an answer.

No, I answered your question.

The idea that one is "innocent until proven guilty" refers to the American criminal justice system, not intelligence gathering among enemy combatants during a time of war.

I suppose it would do no good to ask why you believe this as in all probablity I would likely just get is another evasion.

No, please feel free. I havn't evaded anything and I'll be happy to answer this to the best of my abilities.

Professionals believe that you should give up more personal liberties in order for them to be better able to protect you. Something that they seem have a rather dismal record of being able to do.

That's a rather unfair attack on our troops, don't you think?

I can hook you up with the enlistment form if you'd care to help do some of the shoving.

Been there, done that. And you?

So, we should probably widen the conflict into more countries and kill more people to spread democracy. That should do it.

I don't know about the "spreading democracy" part, but I definitely believe that we need to widen our scope. It's not enough to fight insurgents once they come into Iraq, we need to cut the snake off at the head.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by poncho:
I never noticed Jesus saying shove bamboo up every fingernail of your enemy. He had another strange way of treating enemies.

Jesus said that we should love our enemies, not that governments, charged with protecting their citizens, should love their enemies.

In any event, if you love your enemies at the cost of the safety of your friends, that's not very loving to your friends, is it?

 

[poncho]

That's a rather unfair attack on our troops, don't you think?

Did I say troops? Nope. You said professionals, I said professionals. Neither one of us refered to troops. Why the need to start painting word pictures?

Been there, done that. And you?

No I have never shoved bamboo up anyones fingernails. Was it something you enjoyed doing?

Jesus said that we should love our enemies, not that governments, charged with protecting their citizens, should love their enemies.

I guess then we as Christians should leave Jesus' commandments at the door when we refer to the actions of government. Or is it that government actions take precedent over Jesus' commandments to Christians?

In any event, if you love your enemies at the cost of the safety of your friends, that's not very loving to your friends, is it?

How did we get from loving our enemies to loving them at the expense of our friends? Do we make more or less enemies by loving their friends or torturing them?

I don't know about the "spreading democracy" part, but I definitely believe that we need to widen our scope. It's not enough to fight insurgents once they come into Iraq, we need to cut the snake off at the head.

Otoh if we stopped nuturing snakes until they become strong enough to bite us we'd have less snakes that needed to have their heads cut off.

The idea that one is "innocent until proven guilty" refers to the American criminal justice system, not intelligence gathering among enemy combatants during a time of war.

One standard for us and another for the rest of the world?

 

[SeekingTruth]

It appears that we have some on this board who would believe anything said about this nation, true or not, just so long as it is negative. These same people always resort to tactics of evasion, distortion and introducing claims that they cannot support with fact.

"bamboo shoots under fingernails"--Poncho you have accused a member of this board of performing such acts. It seems to me that once again you have gone far beyond the bounds of good taste. You, Straight and Narrow, ASLANPAL, Brother James and others continue to argue that something which has never been proven as if it were a fact. You make assertions of torture, accuse your Brothers in Christ of performing such heinous acts as driving bamboo shoots under the fingernails of prisoners, and then try to look as if you are taking the high road and those who disagree with you are sinking to some depraved argument. You try to reinforce your argument by asking "Would Jesus approve?", or "Did Jesus say He was okay with torture?", etc. Your arguments are from absurdity and move to absurdity. Do you claim that you lead your life exactly as Jesus would have you lead it? Do you really believe that He would condone everything you have done since being saved? If you don't then why do you attack these brothers in such a vehement and un-Christlike manner?

Originally posted by Brother James:quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by kiwimac:
Perhaps you could point me to the passage in the Bible where Jesus says he is OK with torture?

Kiwimac
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's that new part. Didn't you read it. It's called the project for a new american century. All the great Baptist pastors love it!

Now you are saying that Baptist pastors approve of torture? Shame.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by SeekingTruth:
"bamboo shoots under fingernails"--Poncho you have accused a member of this board of performing such acts.

No, I did make a comment about shoving bamboo shoots under people's fingernails, but I thought it was understood that it was a figure of speech.

Sorry for any confusion.

If you don't then why do you attack these brothers in such a vehement and un-Christlike manner?

I was kind of wondering that, myself.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by rivers1222:
Mike Mck writes:

Frankly, I really don't care.

They're professionals, I am not. I will defer to their judgement.

If it saves the life of one American, I really don't care if we shove bamboo shoots up every fingernail in Iraq.

My one and only priority is that innocent Americans and our allies are safe at the end of the day.
---------------------------
I fully agree.

My priority is to win the wars we fight using every legal means possible, putting every resource necessary to the cause, staying focused on the final goal of full victory without letting the "ups" lull us into comfort and the "downs" drive us into hopelessness, and, then, establishing a lasting peace.

I understand how some of you might feel about this. I admire your zeal for defeating our enemy. However, I beg you to reconsider you views on this. Please take into account the experiences of some of us old grey haired former warriors who've seen war up close and personal. We do not need torture to defeat this evil we face.

How we, as a nation and as individuals, conduct war is very important to our long term victory. If we do it outside our law we will loose our sense of values and our credibility with both our friends and our enemies. We lower ourselves to the standards of those we fight.

Torture is not an acceptable practice according to our existing law of war. We must not use it. Aggressive legal interrogation techniques are acceptable practice according to our existing law of war. We should use every available means within that law. Categorizing detainees to limit legal protections and rights according to classification is also perfectly legal. We should not give up that ability.

Soldiers are trained to kill the enemy. Killing is brutal and has no real bounds. However, even in the act of killing an enemy there is mercy and compassion. Killing or harming an enemy who has ceased to fight is a grave wrong doing. Soldiers fight to win wars to secure peace. They long for wars to end. Thugs are trained to use torture to force cooperation or for pure sadistic pleasure. Thugs have no concern with mercy or compassion. Thugs enjoy brutalizing their victims and lust for the opportunities to do so. They desire no end to the pleasure of it. Torture leads to cruelty which leads to criminal acts in the name of a greater cause.

Soldiers of a nation such as ours must never become thugs. We would regret that very much. We would also lay upon our soldiers a tremendous sense of guilt for any acts of torture they might commit. We would become like those enemies in times past we have reviled for their cruelty.

Aside for the ethical argument, the practical knowledge confirms that torture is a very unreliable tool for intelligence. It yields results - any results - just to end the torture. There are much more effective means for interrogation and for intelligence gathering and analysis.

Nothing about what I've written should be taken to support the allegations that we have tortured detainees as a matter of policy or practice. I strongly object to those false allegations and especially those that size the events of misconduct to make political gains against our leadership at the expense of credibilty of our military. There have been infractions of our law which have been, are being, and will be dealt with.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by poncho:
Did I say troops? Nope. You said professionals, I said professionals. Neither one of us refered to troops. Why the need to start painting word pictures?

Who do you think it is who is doing this?

No I have never shoved bamboo up anyones fingernails. Was it something you enjoyed doing?

No, obviously, I was talking about enlisting.

I guess then we as Christians should leave Jesus' commandments at the door when we refer to the actions of government. Or is it that government actions take precedent over Jesus' commandments to Christians?

Are we a theocracy now? Did I miss a memo somewhere?

How did we get from loving our enemies to loving them at the expense of our friends?

We are proposing the torture of enemy combatants in order to gain information to save our friends.

Do try to keep up.

Do we make more or less enemies by loving their friends or torturing them?

Do we make more or less enemies by appeasing them?

Otoh if we stopped nuturing snakes until they become strong enough to bite us we'd have less snakes that needed to have their heads cut off.

Unless, of course, we were nurturing snakes to go and root out and kill other, more dangerous snakes, so that we don't have to.

One standard for us and another for the rest of the world?

No. This is an accepted practice around the world.

In fact, each branch of the military, plus our foreign service and intelligence agencies offers training on how to deal with this, precisely because they know that each country we may deal with does this.

 

[carpro]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
Torture and humilation may be of the secular world
and you can justify its legality of the fallen world, but Torture and
humilation is not an American Christian Value..PERIOD.

Torture lite and humilation lite is still what it
is Torture and Humilation and from a spiritual perspective the Holy Spirt
rules the still quiet voice in our hearts.

Torture and humiliation are two entirely different things.

 

[poncho]

Originally posted by SeekingTruth:
It appears that we have some on this board who would believe anything said about this nation, true or not, just so long as it is negative. These same people always resort to tactics of evasion, distortion and introducing claims that they cannot support with fact.

"bamboo shoots under fingernails"--Poncho you have accused a member of this board of performing such acts. You, Straight and Narrow, ASLANPAL, Brother James and others continue to argue that something which has never been proven as if it were a fact. You make assertions of torture, accuse your Brothers in Christ of performing such heinous acts as driving bamboo shoots under the fingernails of prisoners, and then try to look as if you are taking the high road and those who disagree with you are sinking to some depraved argument. You try to reinforce your argument by asking "Would Jesus approve?", or "Did Jesus say He was okay with torture?", etc. Your arguments are from absurdity and move to absurdity. Do you claim that you lead your life exactly as Jesus would have you lead it? Do you really believe that He would condone everything you have done since being saved? If you don't then why do you attack these brothers in such a vehement and un-Christlike manner?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally posted by Brother James:quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by kiwimac:
Perhaps you could point me to the passage in the Bible where Jesus says he is OK with torture?

Kiwimac
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's that new part. Didn't you read it. It's called the project for a new american century. All the great Baptist pastors love it!

Now you are saying that Baptist pastors approve of torture? Shame. </font>[/QUOTE]Apparently you feel that you have all the facts that will prove what you say is undeniable truth and that myself and others are ignorant of them...so come out with them.

"bamboo shoots under fingernails"--Poncho you have accused a member of this board of performing such acts.

This is an abberation of my words whether intentional or not I don't know.

It seems to me that once again you have gone far beyond the bounds of good taste.

Fair enough, you have your likes and dislikes and I have mine.

You, Straight and Narrow, ASLANPAL, Brother James and others continue to argue that something which has never been proven as if it were a fact.

Where do you get your "facts" from? The corporate controlled media...it is a fact that most all the media in this country is owned only by 6 corporate conglomerates and those conglomerates along with their cross membership on other corporate boards spends millions if not billions of dollars to lobby congress to increase their profits and control over the population of the USA and the populations of the world.

How is that you keep missing this fact? Do really think we are getting the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth from these agencies of the bottom line?

I'd say one has to be a super conspiracy theorist to even begin to think that way.

Your arguments are from absurdity and move to absurdity.

This is so funny.

Their was once a world belief that the sun revolved around earth and people who believed different were heretics.

Just because you may believe the earth is flat doesn't make it so.

Your not upset with us the accused, your upset that we cause you discomfort by questioning the status quo.

And Mike,

I knew what you meant about the bamboo shoots, I never imagined you would enjoy, much less do something like that.

And as for the "profesionals" I thought you meant politicians not troops. I was refering to professioanl politicians not soldiers. And yes I wore the uniform of the U.S Army. So I'm not totally ignorant of the conditioning process we all went through. Some of us kept it in the back of our minds that that was all it was though a process and didn't take it anymore serious than what it was meant to be.

Snakes to kill bigger snakes. Why not use a mongoose they are better at killing both big snakes and little snakes. That would inject a third possiblity or solution though wouldn't it...can't have that according to those in power. The only way to kill a bigger snake is to nuture a smaller one.

That is imho, insane! Because it has never worked out the way they keep telling us it will.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by poncho:
That is imho, insane! Because it has never worked out the way they keep telling us it will.

How many Soviet troops are in Afghanistan now?

 

[poncho]

None that I know of Mike. Goodie!

How many of the snakes that we helped to drive them out are known as Al Queda or Taliban now? How many of those snakes did we use in Bosnia, and how many of them trained the Jihadies we have to eliminate now?

And why do they hate us if we helped them so much?

 

[Brother James]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by poncho:
First define "guilty".

President Clinton, is that you?

Are we to assume in other countries as we do here in the USA that you are innocent until proven guilty or do we assume that everyone is guilty until proven innocent?

No. You're thinking of our criminal justice system.

How many innocents are you willing to use "any means necessary" on find out who is actually guilty and who is not?

I don't believe that we do this.

A confidential report in February by the International Committee of the Red Cross said that "military intelligence officers told the ICRC that in their estimate between 70 percent and 90 percent of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake." Some of those people were released by units in the field without ever being sent to a permanent prison, the report said.

In interviews since, a senior Army officer who served in Iraq criticized as overly cumbersome a process in which the Iraqi prisoners who had been labeled as security detainees, as opposed to common criminals, could be freed only by the release board.

In one incident described in detail by the senior Army officer, an aggressive round-up in September brought 57 Iraqis into custody. But a review by military intelligence officers at Abu Ghraib determined that only two of them had intelligence value and that the rest should be freed.

A U.S. general at the headquarters in Baghdad overruled that decision, and dictated that all 57 Iraqis be kept in custody. The senior Army officer quoted the general as saying something like, "I don't care if they are innocent; if we release them, they'll go out and tell their friends that we're after them."


SOURCE

Frankly, I really don't care.

They're professionals, I am not. I will defer to their judgement.

If it saves the life of one American, I really don't care if we shove bamboo shoots up every fingernail in Iraq.

My one and only priority is that innocent Americans and our allies are safe at the end of the day. </font>[/QUOTE]How Christlike.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I really, really hate it when people invoke Christ's name when folks disagree with them.

Brother James, do you think the Holy Spirit needs help doing it's job ?

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
I really, really hate it when people invoke Christ's name when folks disagree with them.

But how else would they make themselves feel superior to the rest of us?

 

[Brother James]

Convicted US soldier speaks of worse abuse at Abu Ghraib
Mon Oct 3, 4:39 PM ET

A US soldier convicted of abusing Iraqi prisoners said, in remarks recently made public, she knew of "worse things" happening at Abu Ghraib and insisted military commanders were fully aware of what was going on in Iraq's infamous jail.

The comments, made by Private First Class Lynndie England in her first post-court-martial interview, contradicted assertions by top Pentagon officials that a small group of out-of-control soldiers were responsible for abuse at Abu Ghraib, and that no matter how repulsive that mistreatment was, it did not amount to torture.

England, who became the face of the scandal because of a photograph of her holding a naked prisoner by a leash, was sentenced last Tuesday to three years in prison and ordered to be dishonorably discharged from the Army after a military jury found her guilty of maltreating prisoners and committing an indecent act.

The trial capped a damaging scandal that erupted in 2004, following publication of pictures that showed Abu Ghraib inmates piled up naked on the floor in front of US soldiers, cowering in front of snarling military dogs, chained to beds in stress positions and forced to stand naked in front of female guards.

But England, appearing on NBC's "Dateline" program, said the pictures did not convey the full extent of the abuse that took place in the cell block.

"I know worse things were happening over there," admitted the 22-year-old convict.

She said one night she heard blood-curdling screams coming from the block's shower room, where non-military interrogators had taken an Arab detainee.

"They had the shower on to muffle it, but it wasn't helping," she recalled. "They never screamed like that when we were humiliating. But this guy was like screaming bloody murder. I mean it still haunts me I can still hear it just like it happened yesterday."

The interrogators were not identified, but several investigations into the abuse have disclosed that Central Intelligence Agency operatives worked at Abu Ghraib alongside US military intelligence, mining for useful information.

A total of nine low-ranking soldiers have now been convicted or voluntarily pleaded guilty in the scandal that has sparked condemnation of the United States around the world.

But a Defense Department probe has cleared all top US commanders of criminal responsibility in the matter.

Taking issue with that finding, England argued stripping prisoners naked and handcuffing them to steel bars was part of an officially-sanctioned strategy designed to soften inmates before interrogation and make them more cooperative.

"It was just humiliation tactics and things that we were told to do." she said.

She insisted Specialist Charles Graner, a senior prison guard and her boyfriend, would always show pictures of intimidation procedures to military intelligence (MI) officers when they came to work in the morning.

"And the MI would be like, 'Oh, that's a good job! I never would have thought of that,'" England recalled. "He'd show him and hed show the command and they'd be like, 'Oh, just keep up the good work.'"

US human right advocates argue additional light could be shed on the events at Abu Ghraib with the release of 87 more photographs and four videotapes made by guards at the prison but kept by the Pentagon under lock and key.

A federal judge in New York, responding to a lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union, ruled Thursday these materials should be made public.

But the Defense Department was expected to appeal, arguing such a release would fuel anti-American propaganda and help recruit new Islamic extremists in Iraq and elsewhere.

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