Bush will veto anti-torture law after Senate revolt

[Bro. Curtis]

'zactly.

 

[poncho]

Michael New came forward while he was on active duty and refused to wear the uniform of the United Nations...look what happend to him.

http://www.mikenew.com/index.shtml

http://www.mikenew.com/battalion.html

 

[carpro]

Originally posted by poncho:
Michael New came forward while he was on active duty and refused to wear the uniform of the United Nations...look what happend to him.

http://www.mikenew.com/index.shtml

Apples and oranges, Poncho.

 

[poncho]

Originally posted by carpro:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by poncho:
Michael New came forward while he was on active duty and refused to wear the uniform of the United Nations...look what happend to him.

http://www.mikenew.com/index.shtml

Apples and oranges, Poncho. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you believe to "come forward" while on active duty is an easy thing to do?

 

[carpro]

No I don't.

But I would think someone would refuse to obey an unlawful order or just refuse to take part and /or report it to his commanding officer right on up the chain until he reaches one that takes action.

BTW I agreed with Michael New's stance and admire him greatly for his actions. But it was a "lawful" order.

Ordering prisoner abuse is not.

 

[poncho]

How does one know the difference between a "lawful" order and one that is not?

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by SeekingTruth:
BiR regardless of how you twist the debate, your accusation is false.

Again, utter foolishness. I asked you to show me where I ever accused you of saying that, now I am demanding it. Show me where I wrote what you claim, or apologize. If you are going to claim I wrote something, you had better be ready to prove your claim. Come on, SeekingTruth, your credibility is at stake.

I do not condone torture.

Where did I say this? Again, this is a question of credibility.

If it pleases you liberal little mind to jump an enormous chasm and come to the conclusion that I advocate the old Jesuit argument that the end justifies the means, there is not much one can say about it.

I have already shown this to be the case with respect to your comments regarding humiliation. You reiterated this not once, but twice after you replied.

And yes, I am a LIBERAL. Everyone who exchanges thoughts/ideas with me knows this, so thank you for once again stating what everybody already knows.

You and I will never agree on this issue, so let's agree to disagree.

I am okay with that, and would have been had you left it at that. But you didn't.

While I anticipate more of your sarcasm, I will ignore it.

How convenient it is for you to make unsubstantiated comments and run for cover. One more time, I asked you to show me where I wrote what you claim, and now I am demanding it. Back up that which you claim. Otherwise, exhibit some maturity and admit that you were mistaken. I will even leave it at that. If you do neither, then you have shown us the depth of your credibility.

Hey: you wrote it - back it up.
BiR

 

[Daisy]

Originally posted by carpro:
Funny how they "come forward" later, but don't bother to "come forward" while they are active duty while something could be done about it.

Even funnier is how some tried and were rebuffed.

&lt;snip&gt;

According to Captain Ian Fishback of the 82nd Airborne Division, army doctrine had been broken by allowing Iraqis who were captured by them to remain in their custody, instead of being sent “behind the lines” to trained military police.

Pictures of abuse at FOB Mercury were destroyed by soldiers after the scandal of Abu Ghraib broke.

However, Fishback told his company commander about the abuse and was told “remember the honour of the unit is at stake” and “don’t expect me to go to bat for you on this issue if you take this up”. Fishback then told his battalion commander who advised him to speak to the Judge Advocate General’s (JAG) office, which deals with issues of military law.

The JAG told Fishback that the Geneva Conventions “are a grey area”. When Fishback described some of the abuses he had witnessed the JAG said it was “within” Geneva Conventions.

Fishback added: “ If I go to JAG and JAG cannot give me clear guidance about what I should stop and what I should allow to happen, how is an NCO or a private expected to act appropriately?”

Fishback, a West Point graduate who has served in both Afghanistan and Iraq, spent 17 months trying to raise the matter with his superiors. When he attempted to approach representatives of US Senators John McCain and John Warner about the abuse, he was told that he would not be granted a pass to meet them on his day off.

Fishback says that army investigators were currently more interested in finding out the identity of the other soldiers who spoke to Human Rights Watch than dealing with the systemic abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

&lt;snip&gt;
Source: same as before (linkie)

Appears some of them are self confessed criminals. Wonder what their penalty will be?

And it appears some of them are not. I wonder what their penalty will be?

Is it at all possible they felt the noose tightening and now is the time to "come forward" so they can cop a plea?

Evidently not.

 

[SeekingTruth]

posted by BiR
Again, utter foolishness. I asked you to show me where I ever accused you of saying that, now I am demanding it. Show me where I wrote what you claim, or apologize. If you are going to claim I wrote something, you had better be ready to prove your claim. Come on, SeekingTruth, your credibility is at stake.

This is one of the posts you say I have said that the end justifies the means.

quote:
posted by Bir on October 10, 2005 07:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by SeekingTruth:
BIR, read my post again. I said humiliation not torture. Since when is embarassment equivalent to torture? A few synonyms for torture are: torment, agony, pain, suffer, etc. Humiliating treatment is not in the same ballpark.

And yes, I still believe if a little embarrassment saved one American life it was worth it. Embarrassment and humiliation are not torture by any stretch of the imagination. Check you dictionary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't need to look any further than your own words, SeekingTruth. It is right there: the ends justify the means. As a matter of fact, you even wrote it again.

I pointed out that you have implied that the ends justify the means. Interesting that you felt compelled to post twice to me. Like I said: you didn't have to add anything further.

Regards,
BiR

Now BiR, your credibility is at stake. You did accuse me. You made several personal attacks on me in this thread. I show you where you accuse me. Now apologize. Actually I don't care whether you apologize or not. I will consider the source from whence your insuts came, and ignore them. Take you best shot, self admitted liberal. As to your " demand " that I apologize to you for claiming you said something (which by the way I have demonstrated you did) you have neither the credibility nor the moral right to demand anything of me.

Maturity? You ask that I demonstrate maturity? You wouldn't know maturity if it ran into you.

Yeah I wrote it, and I have backed up and given you the lie.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by SeekingTruth:
This is one of the posts you say I have said that the end justifies the means.

Actually, you have done this not once, not twice, but three different times, and I have already demonstrated that. But you said that I accused you of condoning torture. I couldn't help but notice that you forgot to address that point.....

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> quote:
posted by Bir on October 10, 2005 07:11 PM
Originally posted by SeekingTruth:
BIR, read my post again. I said humiliation not torture. Since when is embarassment equivalent to torture? A few synonyms for torture are: torment, agony, pain, suffer, etc. Humiliating treatment is not in the same ballpark.

And yes, I still believe if a little embarrassment saved one American life it was worth it. Embarrassment and humiliation are not torture by any stretch of the imagination. Check you dictionary.

I don't need to look any further than your own words, SeekingTruth. It is right there: the ends justify the means. As a matter of fact, you even wrote it again.
I pointed out that you have implied that the ends justify the means.
Interesting that you felt compelled to post twice to me. Like I said: you didn't have to add anything further.
</font>[/QUOTE]</font>[/QUOTE]Thank you for showing that I never wrote what you claim. I didn't say anything about "torture," did I? I NEVER said that you said "torture," and you have confirmed this by reposting what I said. "Torture" is YOUR word, not mine. Like I said, utter foolishness. Again, you need to read what I write, and think about what you are going to post before you hit the "add reply" button.

Now BiR, your credibility is at stake. You did accuse me.

Abject fatuity, even when posted in perpetuity, remains nothing more than abject fatuity.

You made several personal attacks on me in this thread. I show you where you accuse me.

Actually, you have shown everyone reading with us that I never did anything of the sort. Thanks for reinforcing my point.

Now apologize. Actually I don't care whether you apologize or not.

Again, utter foolishness.

I will consider the source from whence your insuts came, and ignore them.

Here's a tip: if you are going to accuse me of something, make sure that you check your spelling before you hit that "add reply" button.

Take you best shot, self admitted liberal.

That's right, SeekingTruth: I am a LIBERAL. Again, thanks for telling me what I already knew.

As to your " demand " that I apologize to you for claiming you said something (which by the way I have demonstrated you did) you have neither the credibility nor the moral right to demand anything of me.

Oops, there goes your credibility.
As I have shown, and you have reiterated, I never did that of which you accuse me. Amazing that you are so brazen in your disregard for the facts. You have demonstrated that you are ignoring the truth, despite, as your moniker seemingly claims, you are evidently seeking it.

Maturity? You ask that I demonstrate maturity? You wouldn't know maturity if it ran into you.

You most certainly demonstrated your maturity with this one, didn't you?

Yeah I wrote it, and I have backed up and given you the lie.

Nope, not even close. As a matter of fact, you reiterated my point. Thanks for doing that for me.

BiR