But God Is Love!

[atpollard]

The question is why does God fully saves some?

1] Because He has given them the real choice to trust in His son for salvation (free will)
2] Because He picked some out and condemned the rest because He could. (determinism)

WHY God does what God does is almost always known only to God.

You are ignoring the problem of sin and all of the scripture about the inability and unwillingness of man to come to God. Here are three verses for you to consider what they tell you about PEOPLE:

• And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. [Genesis 3:8 NKJV]
• "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." [John 3:19-20 NKJV]
• "And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." [Ephesians 2:1-3 NKJV]

What is the common thread throughout these verses, how does that common thread refute PELAGIANISM, and why is that common thread a problem to be overcome in your "Option #1"?

John Wesley came up with one answer, but there are others. I merely hope for honest Christians to acknowledge the problem rather than pretend the verses (and truth) do not exist.

 

[atpollard]

Actually it is not the fairness of God rather it is the justice of God. The bible does not say God is fair and the justifier, rather it says " that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Justice is "punish the guilty and free the innocent" ... How is salvation JUST?
Justice is "All have sinned, so All are damned." That is Justice.

The Angels (fallen and unfallen) received Justice.

 

[atpollard]

I am saddened that you would think so little of God that you believe that He would hold out salvation to those that have no chance of getting it.

... that would not be "fair".
(sorry, I couldn't resist)

 

[Reformed1689]

Isn't the Christian message that the lighthouse in your analogy is Jesus Christ?

Thus the good news Christianity is that God offers salvation to ALL through Jesus Christ.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I really do not understand why John 3:16 keeps getting invoked on a topic it does not actually deal with. It does not deal with the extent of the atonement specifically. However, if you want to read the atonement into it, at best, it only supports an atonement for the ones that b

Actually it is not the fairness of God rather it is the justice of God. The bible does not say God is fair and the justifier, rather it says " that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

You don't want justice, believe me!

 

[Campion]

I really do not understand why John 3:16 keeps getting invoked on a topic it does not actually deal with. It does not deal with the extent of the atonement specifically. However, if you want to read the atonement into it, at best, it only supports an atonement for the ones that b

You don't want justice, believe me!

Just a hunch, but maybe it keeps getting invoked because it summarizes and articulates perfectly why God became man.

 

[Reformed1689]

Just a hunch, but maybe it keeps getting invoked because it summarizes and articulates perfectly why God became man.

Does it? Does it articulate it fully? One isolated verse out of context? No it doesn't.

 

[Campion]

Does it? Does it articulate it fully? One isolated verse out of context? No it doesn't.

I think so, yes.

St. Paul summarized it similarly: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (Romans 1:16)

 

[Silverhair]

That is a "humanist" perspective ... you are calling God to answer for how things appear from a human point of view. Job did the same thing and God called him on it.

You are operating from the flawed initial assumption that everyone deserves to be saved, when the reality is that NOBODY should be saved ... damnation for all is JUSTICE. The guilty get punished. From THAT starting point, God's is free to "HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.” (Romans 9:15) as His divine right.

Can you not read? Calvinists are the ones that put God in that position. But why would I surprised that you would want to place that on others. Your theology does that and calvinists will just deny that fact.

 

[Silverhair]

WHY God does what God does is almost always known only to God.

You are ignoring the problem of sin and all of the scripture about the inability and unwillingness of man to come to God. Here are three verses for you to consider what they tell you about PEOPLE:

• And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. [Genesis 3:8 NKJV]
• "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." [John 3:19-20 NKJV]
• "And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." [Ephesians 2:1-3 NKJV]

What is the common thread throughout these verses, how does that common thread refute PELAGIANISM, and why is that common thread a problem to be overcome in your "Option #1"?

John Wesley came up with one answer, but there are others. I merely hope for honest Christians to acknowledge the problem rather than pretend the verses (and truth) do not exist.

Oh I understand why people sin. That is not the issue though. Calvinists refuse to look in the mirror and accept the fact that their theology makes God responsible for what man does, that includes that they sin. Free will makes man responsible but you insist that man has no free will and that God decree all things that happen so your theology causes this trap that your trying to dig yourself out of. Change your theology.

 

[Silverhair]

Justice is "punish the guilty and free the innocent" ... How is salvation JUST?
Justice is "All have sinned, so All are damned." That is Justice.

The Angels (fallen and unfallen) received Justice.

Wrong. Justice, as the quote from Rom 3:26 points out, is those that do not accept Christ Jesus are damned, those that freely do are saved. We are not talking about angels here are we, were talking about humanity so stop with the attempt to deflect the issue. Calvinists really have a problem with what the bible says.

Who do you think this refers to " that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." Man or angels? It is man that is justified by faith not angels. Are you going to avoid the issue again.

 

[Silverhair]

... that would not be "fair".
(sorry, I couldn't resist)

Nice one. And we know that God does not have to be fair but He is just.

 

[Silverhair]

I really do not understand why John 3:16 keeps getting invoked on a topic it does not actually deal with. It does not deal with the extent of the atonement specifically. However, if you want to read the atonement into it, at best, it only supports an atonement for the ones that b

You don't want justice, believe me!

How do you avoid the atonement in these verses" Joh 3:14-18?
Joh 3:14 even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We have the atonement {sufficient for all} and we have redemption {efficient for those that believe}. Those blinders are causing you problems again.

Actually we do want justice. Why would we not? Would you rather that He just be arbitrary in who gets saved? Why did Christ Jesus come here?
1Ti 1:15 ...Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, Are you one, then He came to save you. And He saves those that believe, that is justice?
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[Silverhair]

Does it? Does it articulate it fully? One isolated verse out of context? No it doesn't.

One verse in context sure does.

 

[Revmitchell]

Your caricature of Reformed theology is not accurate.

According to scripture, there is no “real free will”. Paul uses several chapters in Romans explaining that very fact.

All mankind has already rejected God, according to scripture. That God has chosen to intervene in the lives of those He has chosen is a testimony of His grace and love.

There is no one seeking God absent His intervention.

peace to you

Im interested to know how you see what he posted as inaccurate?

 

[atpollard]

I'm interested to know how you see what he posted as inaccurate?

• [Romans 1:24, 26, 28 NASB20] 24 Therefore God gave them up to vile impurity in the lusts of their hearts, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. ... 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged natural relations for that which is contrary to nature, ... 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do those things that are not proper,

According to Silverhair, Calvinism claims that when Romans 1 (quoted above) states that "God gave them up/over to" (sin) it really means that "God decreed that they would reject God". Does Romans 1 say that God makes men sin (as the claim "God decreed that they would" carries at its core?) It is inaccurate to ascribe "hyper-calvinist fatalism" as a teaching of Calvinism. That God draws the elect is affirmed by Calvinists (and scripture). That the reprobate (not His sheep) are "given up" to their natural desires is also affirmed by Calvinism (and scripture). That God compels men to be and do evil is not affirmed by Calvinism (or scripture) and is not necessary ... men need no HELP to be and do evil, they only need that which restrains them from evil to be lifted so they can follow their natural desires and do as they please (the true 'free will' of men).

It is a misrepresentation at the core of MOST of Silverhair's criticisms of Calvinism. I hate Silverhair's 'evil god' of his evil 'strawman calvinism' as much as he does. However that is not what Reformed Theology actually teaches (because it is not what the Bible actually teaches).

 

[AustinC]

Wrong. Justice, as the quote from Rom 3:26 points out, is those that do not accept Christ Jesus are damned, those that freely do are saved. We are not talking about angels here are we, were talking about humanity so stop with the attempt to deflect the issue. Calvinists really have a problem with what the bible says.

Who do you think this refers to " that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." Man or angels? It is man that is justified by faith not angels. Are you going to avoid the issue again.

The problem for you is that Romans 3:26 says absolutely nothing about" freely accepting or rejecting."
Silverhair, your presupposition forces accept or reject into the verse, but the verse doesn't ever say what you say.
Romans 3:26
It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Here you have added your man-made philosophy when the text does not actually do so.

 

[canadyjd]

I have to think that you never heard of salves that were freed by their masters or of slaves that ran away from their masters.

I am saddened that you would think so little of God that you believe that He would hold out salvation to those that have no chance of getting it.

This is the same God that went to the cross, the same God that draws all to Himself, the same God that said, I am the way, the truth and the light. The same God that said, come to me and I will give your rest.

For you, God is the one that condemns billions to an eternity in hell for no other reason than He can. That may be your God but he is assuredly not mine.

First, we are talking about 1st century slavery and Paul’s comments referred to that. Slave owners would give their slaves a small wage, which could be saved over many years and purchase their freedom. Sin, however, only offers death as a wage. Thus, “the wages of sin is death”.

Second: You are “saddened” because you are basing your beliefs on a man made understanding of what is “fair”, not what scripture reveals; which is evident by your egregious belief that “many are saved without having heard the gospel”.

God “held out salvation” to those under the OT Law, knowing that not one single person would be justified by the Law. Does that sadden you? Do you judge God as unfair?

God already knows who will be saved and who will reject (He is omniscient: He knows everything) and yet, He commands us to preach the gospel (holding out the offer of salvation) to all people, knowing before hand most won’t believe. Does that sadden you? Will you judge God as unfair?

For me, God is the one Who could have rightly condemned every person on the planet to hell because we deserve it. Instead, He has poured out His love and grace on those He has chosen.

For you, God must conform to your understanding of righteousness and fairness. In short, you have created a god in your own mind that has nothing to do with The One True God revealed in scripture

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Im interested to know how you see what he posted as inaccurate?

There are many posts of his that mischaracterize reformed theology.

In this particular post, he claims God decreed mankind to reject salvation. I don’t believe that.

peace to you

 

[Reformed1689]

Actually we do want justice. Why would we not? Would you rather that He just be arbitrary in who gets saved? Why did Christ Jesus come here?
1Ti 1:15 ...Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, Are you one, then He came to save you. And He saves those that believe, that is justice?
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Justice is nobody is saved.