I am always amused to hear the CBF pastors point out the evils of the SBC. Isn't it strange that so few of them seem willing to disassociate themselves with this evil machine? What is it that causes them to maintain their ties with such a depraved group? I wonder if it could have anything to do with their Guidestone retirement account??
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BWA just fine without SBC
- Thread starter Jimmy C
- Start date
I will let the words of Denton Lotz the executive director of the BWA speak for themselves - you can find these right on the BWA website, you can tell me if these sound like the words of a liberal - and the most major of all the majors!:
1. We are going to Birmingham to celebrate Jesus Christ as the water of life. He comes to us not as a tsunami to destroy. Christ comes not as a drought to kill or punish. Jesus comes as the loving friend and companion who gives us living water: “Every one who drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up into eternal life.” (John 4:13-14)
Without water one cannot live. Plants cannot grow. Fruit without water will perish. The lush green fields without water become parched and dry without life and without hope. Water gives life. Jesus Christ is that water of life: “To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the water of life.” (Rev. 21:6)
2. We will celebrate at our world congress in England that as the water of life Jesus Christ is the one who purifies, cleanses us from all our sins, and makes us new persons: “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” (Hebrews 10:22) Humanity without God and without hope is living in sin, in alienation and estrangement from God the father, creator and redeemer. Sin in Biblical terms is muddied water, brackish water which cannot satisfy but only further pollutes and destroys: “Like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked” (Proverbs 25:26). There is sin in the world, the church and in individuals. Therefore we need that purifying water which comes by being washed in the blood of Jesus Christ (I John 5:6).
3. Because of our insistence on a regenerate church made up of repentant and born again people symbolized by immersion in water, we were called Baptists. We will quote the Apostle’s Creed, as Alexander Maclaren called upon that assembly 100 hundred years ago to do. We will confess with Christians of all ages that our hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness. We will confess to a thirsty and sinful world that Jesus Christ is indeed that spring of water that will well up into eternal life! Therefore we will go home, refreshed and renewed, ready to tell the world that Jesus Christ is the source of our hope and faith. Having heard good stories from men and women of every tribe we will go home and be able to say that indeed we have drunk deeply at the well of God’s love and are in fellowship with millions of Baptist brothers and sisters who have acknowledged Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Indeed their stories of God’s grace and love in Jesus Christ will refresh us so that we too can say: “Like cold water to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country.” (Proverbs 25:25)
Let us pray and work for a congress that will glorify Christ the Living Water!
1. We are going to Birmingham to celebrate Jesus Christ as the water of life. He comes to us not as a tsunami to destroy. Christ comes not as a drought to kill or punish. Jesus comes as the loving friend and companion who gives us living water: “Every one who drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up into eternal life.” (John 4:13-14)
Without water one cannot live. Plants cannot grow. Fruit without water will perish. The lush green fields without water become parched and dry without life and without hope. Water gives life. Jesus Christ is that water of life: “To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the water of life.” (Rev. 21:6)
2. We will celebrate at our world congress in England that as the water of life Jesus Christ is the one who purifies, cleanses us from all our sins, and makes us new persons: “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” (Hebrews 10:22) Humanity without God and without hope is living in sin, in alienation and estrangement from God the father, creator and redeemer. Sin in Biblical terms is muddied water, brackish water which cannot satisfy but only further pollutes and destroys: “Like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked” (Proverbs 25:26). There is sin in the world, the church and in individuals. Therefore we need that purifying water which comes by being washed in the blood of Jesus Christ (I John 5:6).
3. Because of our insistence on a regenerate church made up of repentant and born again people symbolized by immersion in water, we were called Baptists. We will quote the Apostle’s Creed, as Alexander Maclaren called upon that assembly 100 hundred years ago to do. We will confess with Christians of all ages that our hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness. We will confess to a thirsty and sinful world that Jesus Christ is indeed that spring of water that will well up into eternal life! Therefore we will go home, refreshed and renewed, ready to tell the world that Jesus Christ is the source of our hope and faith. Having heard good stories from men and women of every tribe we will go home and be able to say that indeed we have drunk deeply at the well of God’s love and are in fellowship with millions of Baptist brothers and sisters who have acknowledged Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Indeed their stories of God’s grace and love in Jesus Christ will refresh us so that we too can say: “Like cold water to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country.” (Proverbs 25:25)
Let us pray and work for a congress that will glorify Christ the Living Water!
T
TexasSky
Guest
Number 3 is interesting. "Because of our insistence on a regenerate church made up of repentant and born again people symbolized by immersion in water, we were called Baptists."
That would mean Church of Christ are Baptists.
That would mean Church of Christ are Baptists.
Probably not since they have other options. The CBF has a benefits and retirement package for ministers.
CBF pastors personally do not maintain association with the SBC, however some of their church members could be maintaining ties through their gifts to "Lottie Moon", etc. It's a tense situation. These type of churches are probably "dually aligned".
I'm equally amused why the SBC continues to criticize the CBF but continues to take money from churches that are dually aligned with the CBF.
The CBF takes money from SBC churches and the SBC takes money from CBF churches. It's a messy situation and we're all in bed together.
Magnetic Poles
New Member
And this infighting is one reason why Bold Mission Thrust was an abject failure. The world is dying and Christians are busy hunting heretics within their own.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Here's a rhetorical answer....
Does your church check the salvation status of everyone putting money in the plate on Sunday?
Mark 12:41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much. 42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood."
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
All of the above makes a strong case for being or becoming an Independent Fundamental Baptist with no ties to anyone or anything but the Lord Jesus Christ.I currently attend an SBC church but it is not always comfortable for me considering the alliances they have with such compromised entities and people such as Rick Warren and PDL and Billy Graham to name a few.Many of the music and dress standards are borderline as well.The best thing I can tell you is that my pastor is a strong Bible preacher who I believe is open to being led by the Lord....so I'm gonna stay put unless the Lord clearly leads me elsewhere.The BWA has clearly moved in the direction of a compromised social gospel that is at best "lukewarm"....and we all know what the Lord said about "lukewarm" churches in Revelation 3:15-16.
Greg Sr.
Greg Sr.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
I am glad the BWA is just fine without us. We, likewise, are just fine (as a matter of fact, better off) without them. Now, get on with your lives.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
Greg Perrry,
I grew up a SBC boy. Got saved in a bible preaching SBC church. Yet, I went to Piedmont Baptist College in Winston-Salem NC. The school was founded by a Dr. Stevens who pulled his church out of the SBC in the early 30's.
Anyway, IFB are not perfect. I became one out of conviction. The SBC does great things. It is full of wonderful people who love Jesus and who want to see the great commission fullfilled. However; they still tolerate moderates (which are really liberals) and they still support liberal colleges within alot of their state conv.
I will always stick up for the conservatives in the SBC . Yet, they will never rid themselves of problems until they rid themselves of moderate/liberal state conventions. If the SBC really means buisness about completing the resurgance then they need to start new state conventions in such states as Kentucky, Texas, North Carolina.
These churches that allow "dual giving" make me want to throw up. Have the guts to make a break one way or another. The CBF is full of a bunch of apostates.The dual giving chruches just need a good, do or die truly conservative, Bible preaching,loyal to the SBC pastor to turn those churches around.
I left the SBC to serve in IFB circles out of conviction the one SBC church I pastored was in a association in NC that had two women preachers and about 10 preachers out of the 25 didnt even believe the Bible was inerrant. Yet, since conservatives gained control over the NC state convention all of a sudden these died in the wool libs. wanted to "set aside our theological differences to work together evangelistically" HOGWASH. How can evangelize along with somebody who doesn't even believe the Bible is infallible?
Looks to me like we would each end up with a different kind of disciple don't you think? Ever since I was a little boy when the libs controled everything in NC I could never remember them wanting to work with conservatives on anything as long as they held the purse strings so to speak. Since they lost control though it was a different story.
So I said to myself, I'm not going to lock arms with a bunch like that. They can have each other.
When it gets down to it there is to much power and money at stake within the SBC to get rid of who needs to go. It might rock the boat to much.
I don't need a retirement plan from the SBC. God's is a whole lot better. Yet, the SBC is full of lame duck, no baptizing, churches and often its because some ole dried up prune of a preacher is killing time until he can start drawing his check. He don't want to stir up to much.
I believe the SBC conservative resurgence might fall short. Alot of this new generation don't have the guts to see it through. I mean in a day and age when nobody wants to preach on doctrine because they gotta meet people's felt needs do you honestly think they are gonna invest anytime into taking a stand against moderates or liberals within their own convention. I doubt it because actually alot of them have the same crowd in their own churches.
I grew up a SBC boy. Got saved in a bible preaching SBC church. Yet, I went to Piedmont Baptist College in Winston-Salem NC. The school was founded by a Dr. Stevens who pulled his church out of the SBC in the early 30's.
Anyway, IFB are not perfect. I became one out of conviction. The SBC does great things. It is full of wonderful people who love Jesus and who want to see the great commission fullfilled. However; they still tolerate moderates (which are really liberals) and they still support liberal colleges within alot of their state conv.
I will always stick up for the conservatives in the SBC . Yet, they will never rid themselves of problems until they rid themselves of moderate/liberal state conventions. If the SBC really means buisness about completing the resurgance then they need to start new state conventions in such states as Kentucky, Texas, North Carolina.
These churches that allow "dual giving" make me want to throw up. Have the guts to make a break one way or another. The CBF is full of a bunch of apostates.The dual giving chruches just need a good, do or die truly conservative, Bible preaching,loyal to the SBC pastor to turn those churches around.
I left the SBC to serve in IFB circles out of conviction the one SBC church I pastored was in a association in NC that had two women preachers and about 10 preachers out of the 25 didnt even believe the Bible was inerrant. Yet, since conservatives gained control over the NC state convention all of a sudden these died in the wool libs. wanted to "set aside our theological differences to work together evangelistically" HOGWASH. How can evangelize along with somebody who doesn't even believe the Bible is infallible?
Looks to me like we would each end up with a different kind of disciple don't you think? Ever since I was a little boy when the libs controled everything in NC I could never remember them wanting to work with conservatives on anything as long as they held the purse strings so to speak. Since they lost control though it was a different story.
So I said to myself, I'm not going to lock arms with a bunch like that. They can have each other.
When it gets down to it there is to much power and money at stake within the SBC to get rid of who needs to go. It might rock the boat to much.
I don't need a retirement plan from the SBC. God's is a whole lot better. Yet, the SBC is full of lame duck, no baptizing, churches and often its because some ole dried up prune of a preacher is killing time until he can start drawing his check. He don't want to stir up to much.
I believe the SBC conservative resurgence might fall short. Alot of this new generation don't have the guts to see it through. I mean in a day and age when nobody wants to preach on doctrine because they gotta meet people's felt needs do you honestly think they are gonna invest anytime into taking a stand against moderates or liberals within their own convention. I doubt it because actually alot of them have the same crowd in their own churches.
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Shannon...I believe you have hit the nail on the head with most all of what you said.As for my giving,when I give to my church I do make a habit of designating everything I give in hopes of it being used locally instead of being shipped off to the cooperative program.I have no guarantee of that but I do get very specific.I am attending this church right now primarily because that is where the Lord clearly led me in order to "bring me home" after a long period of backsliding in my life.My background was from IFB churches and I still love them but after going through a very ugly divorce(don't think there is any other kind)after my professing christian wife walked out on me and filed for it back in 1984,I wound up discouraged and defeated and fell away from the Lord for nearly 13 MISERABLE years.Just prior to that...and AFTER the "D" word became attached to me...I became aware that in many IFB circles I was "damaged goods"...and it really did a number on me at the time.I just didn't seem to "fit" anymore.When I disappeared from church back then not even ONE person in that "fellowship" even bothered to call me or inquire if anything was wrong.Well...it was wrong(me)...but I gave up...and the cost was VERY HEAVY.Thankfully,we have a very patient and loving Father who never gives up on us.I don't know what the future holds as far as church goes but I will be seeking the Lord's will as to what He wants me to do and whether or not he wants me to stay put here or go elsewhere.I have had many long talks with my pastor and I believe he is VERY concerned as to the direction that the Convention is going in these days.He preaches as good or better than any Independent I have ever heard so who knows....the Lord may lead him to "pull out".He actually got in the pulpit this past sunday and started naming names of some of the compromised preachers that are currently deceiving so many these days.It got REAL QUIET in there!These are interesting times I'm in these days.Pray for us.
Greg Sr.
shannon said:
"I believe the SBC conservative resurgence might fall short. Alot of this new generation don't have the guts to see it through. I mean in a day and age when nobody wants to preach on doctrine because they gotta meet people's felt needs do you honestly think they are gonna invest anytime into taking a stand against moderates or liberals within their own convention."
Or it might be that more and more folks understand that conventionalism is a moribund creature and not worth the fight and in-fighting. This has little to do with liberals or moderates or conservatives or fundamentalists. The convention system is dead.
The future will be some combination of the IFB and convention system: a web of connections in which every church can belong to whichever groups it believes will advance the cause of Christ and maintain Baptist principles. Thus, I see no conflict with a church supporting the SBC, the CBF, the BWA and any number of other causes, always maintaining its autonomy, yet never fearing to associate with others even though they may not agree on every point of belief.
Or not.
"I believe the SBC conservative resurgence might fall short. Alot of this new generation don't have the guts to see it through. I mean in a day and age when nobody wants to preach on doctrine because they gotta meet people's felt needs do you honestly think they are gonna invest anytime into taking a stand against moderates or liberals within their own convention."
Or it might be that more and more folks understand that conventionalism is a moribund creature and not worth the fight and in-fighting. This has little to do with liberals or moderates or conservatives or fundamentalists. The convention system is dead.
The future will be some combination of the IFB and convention system: a web of connections in which every church can belong to whichever groups it believes will advance the cause of Christ and maintain Baptist principles. Thus, I see no conflict with a church supporting the SBC, the CBF, the BWA and any number of other causes, always maintaining its autonomy, yet never fearing to associate with others even though they may not agree on every point of belief.
Or not.
No doubt a number of people that are sledging the BWA here feel justified in doing that because it is o.k to abuse people as long as it is for God right?
For those that are so keen to lay sledges into Christian organisations, how about your own group? Do they have a clean sheet? Are they perfect? Most likely not. Yet instead of evangalising and following the final instructions of Jesus to the church, it is all to easy to take shots at other groups as less and less people turn up to your own. Congratulations!
For those that are so keen to lay sledges into Christian organisations, how about your own group? Do they have a clean sheet? Are they perfect? Most likely not. Yet instead of evangalising and following the final instructions of Jesus to the church, it is all to easy to take shots at other groups as less and less people turn up to your own. Congratulations!
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
1. We are not abusing anyone.
2. No, we do not have a clean sheet. But, we are better off without the BWA, just as they seem to think they are just fine without us. Perhaps, since they are doing so good, they can move on with their lives.
3. The SBC is evangelizing the world with the true Gospel and following the full council of God. We are just doing it without the BWA. We are happy to continue doing so, as we are Christians and that is what Christians do.
4. You don't need to congratulate us. It is all to the glory of God, lest any man boast.
Joseph Botwinick
2. No, we do not have a clean sheet. But, we are better off without the BWA, just as they seem to think they are just fine without us. Perhaps, since they are doing so good, they can move on with their lives.
3. The SBC is evangelizing the world with the true Gospel and following the full council of God. We are just doing it without the BWA. We are happy to continue doing so, as we are Christians and that is what Christians do.
4. You don't need to congratulate us. It is all to the glory of God, lest any man boast.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Ben,
As a matter of fact, this whole thread was meant to sledge the SBC. I guess it doesn't matter, though, since they are doing so well without us. I wonder, if they are doing so well without us, why they cannot simply move on with their lives. Likewise, the SBC is doing fine without the BWA (better in fact). So why don't we both go our seperate ways and move on with our lives?
Joseph Botwinick
As a matter of fact, this whole thread was meant to sledge the SBC. I guess it doesn't matter, though, since they are doing so well without us. I wonder, if they are doing so well without us, why they cannot simply move on with their lives. Likewise, the SBC is doing fine without the BWA (better in fact). So why don't we both go our seperate ways and move on with our lives?
Joseph Botwinick
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
Separating from those we disagree with is always easier than actually talking, listening and working out our differences as brothers and sisters in Christ.
The question is, which is the more biblical approach?
The question is, which is the more biblical approach?
Joseph
I take exception to your assertation that this whole thread was meant to seldge the SBC. The SBC tried to bankrupt the BWA by pulling out. They decided that if they pulled out, as the biggest donor, the BWA would fall apart. I was excited when I read that churches more than made up the difference, and that state Baptist Conventions in Texas and Va were now going to be contributing partners.
The BGCT and the BWA do great things for the cause of Christ - in Texas and around the world. Just because they do not bow down to the Baptist Popes in Nashville does not make them any less Christian.
Someone said that moderate = liberal - WRONG. My theology is as conservative as just about any one elses on this board.
I take exception to your assertation that this whole thread was meant to seldge the SBC. The SBC tried to bankrupt the BWA by pulling out. They decided that if they pulled out, as the biggest donor, the BWA would fall apart. I was excited when I read that churches more than made up the difference, and that state Baptist Conventions in Texas and Va were now going to be contributing partners.
The BGCT and the BWA do great things for the cause of Christ - in Texas and around the world. Just because they do not bow down to the Baptist Popes in Nashville does not make them any less Christian.
Someone said that moderate = liberal - WRONG. My theology is as conservative as just about any one elses on this board.