By faith alone or by faith and acting?

[Luke2427]

I've never changed what I have been saying, you are just now starting to understand me. There is a difference in "in order to be saved" and "in order to know if you are saved...." You seemed to take my argument for the latter and apply it to the former all the while ignoring all my clarifying comments.

THE THREAD WAS ABOUT ACTUALLY GETTING SAVED. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ASSURANCE OF SALVATION.

You said in a thread about what it takes to be saved that one must ACT UPON HIS FAITH.

No intelligent person on earth would have interpreted your comments any differently.

Someone can believe that Jesus is the son of God and NOT choose to follow him as the Lord of their life. (like a demon)

There it is again.

Salvation comes by faith PLUS FOLLOWING.

You are saved the instant you believe. You THEN go about following the master BECAUSE you believe.

The demons do not follow Christ, in part, because they do not have the same kind of faith that the Christian has.

Well, sometimes I'm not sure because you have done it many times and that one qualification does make your statement true because Edwards did have a differing view of Original Sin. He didn't, according to HIS OWN WORDS, have a different view on the 'origin of evil, from that of the Arminian divines.

Wrong again on this for the hundredth time.

He agreed as most of humanity does with one PART of what the Arminian divines purport concerning the origin of evil.

If you mean by 'spin,' where he disagrees with your hard deterministic conclusions and agrees with Arminians (by his own conclusion), then I guess so.

He doesn't disagree with me as several others and I have tried to point out to you to no avail.

You've avoided AA Hodge's quote and its clear as to why. It is even more clear than C Hodge because he uses the exact words you do.

I avoided nothing. We can only deal with one thing at a time.

You now are backing off on the Hodge quote because, as slave4Christ and I have shown, he is not purporting an unlimited atonement as you tried to depict him doing.

I wanted to point out that once again you have misrepresented yet another Calvinist's words.

We can show how you do that with AA Hodge next if you like.

 

[Skandelon]

It was the context of the thread in which you were quoted. The thread was about what it takes to be saved.

The OP presented the problem of the "Lordship controversy" (to which I referred) by suggesting that faith w/o works can save (i.e. faith alone or faith and acting?) I confronted it in the same way MacArthur did by defining the different kinds of faith: Dead faith versus living faith. Living faith IS 'faith and action' while dead faith is 'faith alone...without action')

You just admitted this when you spoke of the demon's faith as being 'deficient.' What makes it deficient? NO ACTION/obedience. A lost man can have that same deficient (i.e. dead) faith, but he shouldn't think that is going to save him because it won't.

I set out to prove that faith is not a choice and since salvation comes through faith then we do not CHOOSE to be saved.

And I set out to show you that I agree that truth can be clearly revealed, known to be true and believed without choosing to do so, (like demons do) and still not be saved.

 

[Luke2427]

The OP presented the problem of the "Lordship controversy" (to which I referred) by suggesting that faith w/o works can save (i.e. faith alone or faith and acting?) I confronted it in the same way MacArthur did by defining the different kinds of faith: Dead faith versus living faith. Living faith IS 'faith and action' while dead faith is 'faith alone...without action')

I know what the OP was about. It was my OP.

Here it is:

By faith or by choice
Arminians and "non-cals" believe that salvation is the result of a person's free will choice. Whether one goes to heaven or hell is up to his own personal choice.

But Scripture everywhere affirms that salvation comes through faith- not through some choice made by the sinner.

The Arminian just ASSUMES that Scripture implies choice for salvation.

He assumes that faith is the result of choice- that we CHOOSE to believe.

But it is not so. Faith is something that happens TO us. It is not something we conjure or create in ourselves.

Faith is the result of being convinced by outside forces.

For example. A long time ago I did not believe that you could catch catfish with pieces of hot dogs.
But something happened in my sphere of observation that caused me to repent of that thinking and believe.
A friend caught buckets of catfish with hotdog pieces before my eyes.

Did I CHOOSE to believe that? NO! I had no choice BUT to believe it.

Something outside of myself PERSUADED me that it was so.

Faith did not come to me as a result of my own free will choice. I was MADE to believe by persuasive information employed by my friend.

The information that came to me persuaded me. That's the important point. I WAS persuaded. That means something happened to me. It was not something I created in me.

Was it proper to say "I believed"? Yes. The Bible often says "He believed." But this does not mean that he CHOSE to believe. "Believe" is truly something I did- but not of choice. The tree leans in the hurricane. It does this because something is happening to it. It is not doing it itself. It is doing it, but only because something is CAUSING it to do it.

To believe is to BE persuaded. It is to have something happen to you. It is for you to be on the receiving end of the action. The action in this case is the impartation of persuasive information.

To CHOOSE is for you to be the one doing the action. And we do choose things ONCE WE BELIEVE. We choose to sit in the chair, but only because we already BELIEVE that it will hold us. Belief precedes the choice.

Choice comes as a RESULT of faith. My choice is not the creator of my faith.
My faith drives my choices. My choices do not drive my faith.


SALVATION DOES NOT COME FROM MAKING A CHOICE.

SALVATION COMES FROM HAVING BEEN MADE TO BELIEVE.

The difference is as great as night and day.

What causes one to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? The regenerative power of the Holy Spirit through the Gospel.


We are not saved through our choice- something we do.

We are saved through our faith- something that is done to us.


If this is true, and it is, Arminianism cannot be true. It cannot be true because Arminianism rests fully upon the faulty premise that one CHOOSES to believe.

But one cannot help but believe when he is persuaded and one cannot help but NOT believe until he is persuaded.

Being persuaded is being on the receiving end- it is not being on the acting end.

You are CAUSED to believe. You don't choose to believe. You CANNOT choose to believe. Belief comes as a result of BEING persuaded- not as a result of choosing.

Both grace and faith are things that happen TO the saved. Neither of them have to do with our own choice. Once they happen to us, then we make all kinds of choices toward God. But the choices are a RESULT of that which actually saves- not a part of it.

This is clearly not as you try to spin it.

 

[Luke2427]

You just admitted this when you spoke of the demon's faith as being 'deficient.' What makes it deficient? NO ACTION/obedience.

No. "NO ACTION/obedience" does not MAKE it deficient. It only PROVES that it is deficient.

There is a HUGE difference.

 

[Skandelon]

..hat it takes to be saved that one must ACT UPON HIS FAITH.

Notice how you have to keep adding the words, 'to be saved' or 'in order to be saved.' Your words added to confound an otherwise simple matter.

Define 'dead faith' and be done with it.

There it is again.

Salvation comes by faith PLUS FOLLOWING.

Read what I wrote again: "Someone can believe that Jesus is the son of God and NOT choose to follow him as the Lord of their life. (like a demon)"

Are the words "salvation comes..." in my quote? Nope, added by you. If what you are arguing is true then demons would be saved (which is the same argument MacArthur makes against his critics too, interestingly enough)

You are saved the instant you believe. You THEN go about following the master BECAUSE you believe.

What if you believe with dead faith, not living faith? Are you still saved in that instant? That is my point. You fail to draw that distinction. There are different kinds of 'faith.' You admitted it when you spoke of the 'deficient faith' of Demons.

The demons do not follow Christ, in part, because they do not have the same kind of faith that the Christian has.

Right, they have a dead faith, that is what we are talking about. Are you saying a person can't have the same kind of dead faith as the demons do?

Wrong again on this for the hundredth time.

He agreed as most of humanity does with one PART of what the Arminian divines purport concerning the origin of evil.

:laugh:
Yeah, the part Edwards addresses in that same quote regarding God's permissive and active decrees...remember the part you refused to affirm?

He doesn't disagree with me as several others and I have tried to point out to you to no avail.

Fine, but he does disagree with some Calvinists as this has been a matter of some controversy even among Calvinists over the years. That is just a fact. I just suspect you and some others are not aware of the differing approaches associated with this particular distinction.

The point is that no one perishes for lack of atonement, as SOME Calvinists tend to indicate by suggesting the satisfaction of divine justice is not equally available/applicable to all.

You now are backing off on the Hodge quote because, as slave4Christ and I have shown, he is not purporting an unlimited atonement as you tried to depict him doing.

Backing off?!? NOOO, adding to... as these were all scholars from the "Princeton" tradition and were targets in this particular controversy. Read up on it sometime.

We can show how you do that with AA Hodge next if you like.

:laugh: Ok. I look forward to that.

 

[Luke2427]

Notice how you have to keep adding the words, 'to be saved' or 'in order to be saved.' Your words added to confound an otherwise simple matter.

That's what the thread was about which is on this page clear for anyone to see.

Define 'dead faith' and be done with it.

Not being fully persuaded that Jesus Christ is Lord. Believing that he exists but not that he is LORD.

Believing that he is LORD will of necessity drive you to work FOR HIM.

The devils know that he exists. But they doubt, for whatever reason, that he will in the end be Lord of all.

Read what I wrote again: "Someone can believe that Jesus is the son of God and NOT choose to follow him as the Lord of their life. (like a demon)"

Are the words "salvation comes..." in my quote? Nope, added by you. If what you are arguing is true then demons would be saved (which is the same argument MacArthur makes against his critics too, interestingly enough)

I've proven, Skandelon, that you were saying that salvation comes by ACTING UPON YOUR FAITH.

You are crawfishing on it now. Fine.

So you do recognize that one must but truly believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved, right?

You now affirm that one does not have to ACT UPON HIS FAITH IN ORDER TO BE SAVED but rather that he acts upon his faith because he IS SAVED, right?

What if you believe with dead faith, not living faith? Are you still saved in that instant? That is my point. You fail to draw that distinction. There are different kinds of 'faith.' You admitted it when you spoke of the 'deficient faith' of Demons.

Works do not "MAKE" faith sufficient. They only PROVE that faith is sufficient. A distinction which you seem utterly incapable of grasping.

The point is that no one perishes for lack of atonement, as SOME Calvinists tend to indicate by suggesting the satisfaction of divine justice is not equally available/applicable to all.

And this "applicable" must be understood in context, too.

What it clearly does NOT mean is that it applies to everyone equally.

 

[Luke2427]

This is the big problem with your thinking Skandelon. Here is what you said:

You just admitted this when you spoke of the demon's faith as being 'deficient.' What makes it deficient? NO ACTION/obedience. A lost man can have that same deficient (i.e. dead) faith, but he shouldn't think that is going to save him because it won't.

Do you not understand that works do not MAKE faith sufficient but only PROVE that it is sufficient???

James said "I will SHOW you my faith by my works."

That is what works do. They SHOW the nature of the faith- that it is sufficient, alive. They don't, as you said, "make" it sufficient.

 

[Skandelon]

Faith is what it is. It is either authentic or its not. Its either sufficient or its not. Its either dead or living. So when you use the word 'faith' without indicating which kind of faith you are talking about it confuses the matter. I affirm that 'living faith alone saves.' But like MacArthur I affirm that living faith works.

I never said you make faith sufficient or you make it save. When I asks what makes the demon's faith deficient, I simply meant what part of your definition of deficit faith makes it deficit. In other words, what is the difference between your definition of living faith and dead faith? Is it not obedience?

 

[Luke2427]

Faith is what it is. It is either authentic or its not. Its either sufficient or its not. Its either dead or living.

Is it alive BECAUSE it works or does it work because it is alive?

I never said you make faith sufficient or you make it save.

You said precisely that what makes the faith of demons deficient is "NO ACTION" period.

There is only one conclusion anyone can take from that. It is that you believe that works MAKE faith sufficient or alive.

You literally SAID that what it is that "MAKES" the faith of demons deficient is that there is "no action."

But the converse is true. There is no action BECAUSE the faith is already intrinsically deficient.

If you would like to withdraw that remark and say that you should have said it differently, then you are certainly welcome to do that.

But, whether you meant to or not, THAT is what you ACTUALLY said.

 

[preacher4truth]

The faith of demons is merely 'mental' knowledge, assent and belief that there is a God. It's a given, nothing in it is salvific.

This same type of faith in human persons is invalid and can never be salvific. It rests upon the persons mental knowledge and assent that said believes there is a God. It is purely faith in ones own ability to acknowledge a belief in God. It is representative of inherent faith, and is in contrast to saving faith.

The above is one reason we rightly reject the illustrations that believing in Jesus is the same action as walking on a bridge believing it will support a person, or other myriad illustrations akin to this.

Saving faith is the gift of God. It has works. It is not the cause of salvation, it is the product of salvation.

 

[quantumfaith]

The faith of demons is merely 'mental' knowledge, assent and belief that there is a God. It's a given, nothing in it is salvific.


Do you think many or any disagree on this point?

This same type of faith in human persons is invalid and can never be salvific.

Yes, a faith which purely upon the intellect devoid of any notion of the spiritual dimension is indeed dead, nothing more than academics.

It rests upon the persons mental knowledge and assent that said believes there is a God. It is purely faith in ones own ability to acknowledge a belief in God. It is representative of inherent faith, and is in contrast to saving faith.

Here is where you just can't stand it, you simply have to dig in that man is doing everything within his own strength and desire. To my knowledge NNE claims such here in BB land but you seem to delight in doing your very best to make some as so.

The above is one reason we rightly reject the illustrations that believing in Jesus is the same action as walking on a bridge believing it will support a person, or other myriad illustrations akin to this.

The illustrations are meant to give insight as to the reality of faith in ones life, unfortunately, none of us can truly look into the depths of a man and KNOW if he has this "faith" or not. We are all at the mercy of our observations.

Saving faith is the gift of God. It has works. It is not the cause of salvation, it is the product of salvation.

Yes, saving faith is indeed the gift of God and very real to everyone who exercises it.

 

[Winman]

Well fellas, this is the great controversy that has raged for centuries. One group says we must believe only, the other side says faith without works is dead. We know the scriptures cannot contradict themselves, so there must be a view where both are true and do not contradict each other.

I believe the answer is shown in Luke 17.

Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Here the disciples asked Jesus to increase their faith. Jesus turns it around and tells them if they had faith as a grain of mustard seed, they could say to a sycamine tree to be plucked up by the root and cast into the sea, and it would obey you.

But then Jesus directly starts talking to his disciples about being servants in verse 7. He asks that if a servant comes from the field, will his master tell him to sit down and eat? Or will the master rather tell the servant to serve him first, and afterward the servant can eat and drink?

What does this have to do with increasing faith? It seems to argue that faith will be increased through service to Jesus our Master.

But I believe we see the answer to faith and works in verses 9 and 10. Jesus asks his disciples if the Master will thank the servant because he performed his duties. Jesus says NO. Then he says likewise, when we have DONE all things that have been commanded us, our attitude should be that we have simply performed our duty.

So, we are saved by faith, but true faith will obey and do what Jesus commands us. But our attitude should not be that we have earned salvation through our works or merit, but simply performed our duty and obligation to Jesus who has saved us and is our Master.

So, do what you are told, but remember you are saved by grace alone and not because of any merit on our part.

This is a fine line.

 

[Skandelon]

Which one of these is living faith:

1. Indy stands on a ledge saying out loud "I believe..." but never takes a step.

2. Indy stands on a ledge saying out loud "I believe..." while taking a step into open space.

Now, if you believe someone can spend their whole life on the ledge professing faith without ever stepping out and be saved, go right ahead; but I'm with James, "faith without deeds is dead." Profession without stepping is dead.

 

[Skandelon]

We need to back up and define our terms if you want continue Luke:

Define what you mean by "faith."

Here are some from MacArthur which have brought many of the same type of arguments you seem to be suggesting:

"The Greek word translated 'belief' is not referring merely to intellectual attainment or mental acquiescence but a wholehearted acceptance of everything that is implied in the claims of Christ. You need to believe that Jesus is God and that He died for your sins, committing your whole life to Him in sacrifice and serving Him as Lord." (Assurance of Victory--1 John 5, Moody Press, p.12).

"Submission to the will of God, to Christ’s lordship, and to the guiding of the Spirit is an essential, not an optional, part of saving faith" (EPHESIANS, p. 249).

"Saving faith is a placing of oneself totally in submission to the Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 1-8, p. 205).

 

[Don]

Which one of these is living faith:

1. Indy stands on a ledge saying out loud "I believe..." but never takes a step.

2. Indy stands on a ledge saying out loud "I believe..." while taking a step into open space.

Now, if you believe someone can spend their whole life on the ledge professing faith without ever stepping out and be saved, go right ahead; but I'm with James, "faith without deeds is dead." Profession without stepping is dead.

Sorry, Skan, but I have to utterly disagree with what you've written here. What you've described with this analogy is NOT what James was talking about at all; and moreover, it completely disregards what Ephesians 2:10 tells us.

In my opinion, which really isn't worth a plug nickel, I honestly believe what you've been trying to say is that a person who has saving faith has no problem stepping off the ledge; but where I disagree with you is that by not stepping off the ledge is somehow a "proof" that the individual lacks saving faith.

Profession followed by love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, meekness, tolerance -- and yes, faith ... those are the works that we are saved unto. Absence of these is an indication that there is something missing; and it is these things, and their opposites (also listed in Galatians 5) that we use as the measuring stick of faith.

If we have saving faith, these things will follow; if we merely believe, like the devils, then we are able, just like the devils, to continue with the works of the flesh.

 

[Skandelon]

Sorry, Skan, but I have to utterly disagree with what you've written here. What you've described with this analogy is NOT what James was talking about at all; and moreover, it completely disregards what Ephesians 2:10 tells us.

In my opinion, which really isn't worth a plug nickel, I honestly believe what you've been trying to say is that a person who has saving faith has no problem stepping off the ledge; but where I disagree with you is that by not stepping off the ledge is somehow a "proof" that the individual lacks saving faith.

I actually said 'never stepping'... If one 'never obeys' we can be sure their faith was dead... "You will know them by their fruit." That is not to say that even true believers don't have times in life where they are living in rebellion or disobedience though...if that is the way you took it.

If we have saving faith, these things will follow

I agree, so if they never follow what should WE, from our human perspective, conclude?

 

[Skandelon]

I have to close this thread due to it's length, but feel free to start a new one. Let me just restate for clarity. I don't believe we are saved by any work of our own, for even our greatest efforts are as filthy rags. But God, being great in love and rich in mercy takes those filthy rags and credits the works and righteousness of Christ to my account. Praise the Lord!