By faith or by choice

[OldRegular]

Even the demons believe, so by this standard I guess you think they too will be saved.

I have said elsewhere on this forum, perhaps this thread, that the faith that is required in Salvation is not simply the intellectual assent to the incarnation, life, sacrificial death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Salvation is a supernatural transaction between a sinful man and the Triune God. Therefore, Saving Faith must be the Gift of God. It cannot come from the mind of the natural man, dead in trespass and sin; just as the man who is physically dead can revive himself!

 

[OldRegular]

.

I said, "The Bible not one times says one is regenerate before he believes." You are asking me to prove something doesn't exist. Just show me one place where a person is said to have been born again and yet not believe.

Ephesians 2:1-8 [NASB]
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Now the Apostle Paul is not talking to hose who are physically dead but to those who are:

1. dead in your trespasses and sins,

2. walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air

3. lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath

It is these that God:

being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, ... made us alive together with Christ.

Now where does it say that faith is exercised before spiritual life, regeneration, is given? Even the faith we exercise in conversion is the Gift of God!

 

[Winman]

I have said elsewhere on this forum, perhaps this thread, that the faith that is required in Salvation is not simply the intellectual assent to the incarnation, life, sacrificial death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Salvation is a supernatural transaction between a sinful man and the Triune God. Therefore, Saving Faith must be the Gift of God. It cannot come from the mind of the natural man, dead in trespass and sin; just as the man who is physically dead can revive himself!

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Jesus is speaking of the lost here. He said the way side are those "that hear". So the unregenerate can hear the word of God, just as John 5:25 says. But then we see the devil intervenes so that they do no believe. And we see that if they were to believe they would be saved. Again, faith precedes regeneration. It is shown over and over again.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jesus here compared salvation to the Jews who were bitten by the fiery serpents in the wilderness. They had to look upon the brass serpent before they were healed. Likewise, we must look to God in faith before we have life.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Do the scriptures teach we have to be regenerated to have the ability to look to God in faith? No. The scriptures teach we must look to God in faith to be saved. Faith precedes regeneration.

Calvinism cannot provide even one verse in all of scripture that says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. All scripture shows a man must believe to be regenerated.

Calvinism is unscriptural.

 

[Winman]

Now where does it say that faith is exercised before spiritual life, regeneration, is given? Even the faith we exercise in conversion is the Gift of God!

It most certainly does, it says by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH. You are saved by grace, but it is accessed through faith. You must believe to receive or access grace.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We have access "by faith into this grace". Faith is the door you must pass through to enter into grace. No faith, no grace.

Once again, the scriptures show faith precedes being saved or regenerated.

 

[agedman]

I said, "The Bible not one times says one is regenerate before he believes." You are asking me to prove something doesn't exist. Just show me one place where a person is said to have been born again and yet not believe.

Just to be sure we are talking about the same item, I want to state that I most certainly agree that belief and born again are in fact the point of salvation.

However, I am not completely convinced that regeneration is a singular act of God rather a process, and that it is at the same time and not before actually being born again.

No, you even agreed with me above when I said, "There are no unbelieving born again people." If a person is regenerate and doesn't believe, then he is an "unbelieving born again" person which you agreed with me that no such person exists.

Then you equate regeneration and salvation as the same.

Show they are not. I've never seen one instance where salvation is a long process where one gets regenerate and then later believes.

I wonder if examples are found, in which God impressed upon the unbeliever the claim and need of a savior. That these examples demonstrate that the unbeliever first becoming enlightened to the need is more than what the Holy Spirit presents as common to the world. That this enlightenment is the conception of regeneration. Such examples might be seen in the conversion experiences of the eunuch, the thief, Saul/Paul, and Cornelius.

You even agreed with me that there are no unbelieving born again people. If that's the case, then regeneration, faith, repentance, justification all happen at the same time. The only reason that anyone says that regeneration precedes faith is that they want to counter the argument that believe precedes regeneration. As I stated, no where in Scripture does it say that "one is regenerate before he believes. If there is, please share it with me.

I haven't run across a "proof text" and, I think that there is the presumption that the order is as you indicate. But, I am not certain that the order is anything more than presumption.

If one takes regeneration as a process rather than a one time act, then what I wonder is if the conviction that drives a person to Godly sorrow which is completed in salvation, may not be considered as the very start of the regenerating process.

For if a person is totally alienated from God, by both sin and judgment, their rational mind (intellect) darkened, their sensitivity to Spiritual things not only foreign but incapable of being received, and in this state the person is only capable of blame, shame, and cover up, then certainly something has to happen to bring the person to a heightened and continual growing awareness of the need of a savior. If it is the Holy Spirit, then the Spirit must instil some item into the person that makes the work of conviction more than presented to the typical world.

 

[Skandelon]

I have said elsewhere on this forum, perhaps this thread, that the faith that is required in Salvation is not simply the intellectual assent to the incarnation, life, sacrificial death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Right, there must be the willingness to act in accordance with what you know to be true. Demons (or the lost) may know Jesus is the son of God but refuse to follow him as Lord of their lives.

 

[Winman]

Error with this post

 

[Cypress]

Faith is also a verb.

This was a response to someone making a similar argument, perhaps it applies here as well.
"I understand what you're thinking, but that doesn't make "faith" a verb. It's still a noun. It's not something you "do". Let me see you faith around the block a couple times, or faith up and down a tree. Faith isn't a verb, even though it's probably true that you have to "do" something with your faith in order for it to be "real" or to even show that you "have" it.

I don't understand the problem you're having using "faith" the way everyone else does - as something (and, therefore, a noun) a person can have, can use, can apply, etc. I think you're playing with semantics here, and unnecessarily. Even the Bible agrees with what you're thinking, as in James 2:14 ("Faith without works is dead."), in that faith requires some action, but you don't have to bend grammatical definitions of parts of speech around to think of "faith" that way. Just use it as the object of a verb."

 

[Winman]

Right, there must be the willingness to act in accordance with what you know to be true. Demons (or the lost) may know Jesus is the son of God but refuse to follow him as Lord of their lives.

There is no salvation offered to the fallen devils. There is no promise to save them, therefore there is no foundation for a saving faith. Jesus did not die for the fallen angels, but only for fallen man.

Scriptural faith is always based on a promise from God. Can you believe with certainty that God will save you if you call on Jesus for salvation? Yes, because there iis a direct promise given us.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This is scripture we can all personally claim and put our complete dependence upon. God has absolutely promised to save any person who calls on Jesus to save them.

The fallen devils have no such promise and therefore have no basis for saving faith.

 

[Cypress]

True!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[OldRegular]

Winman

I have never said that Faith is not an essential aspect of salvation. i have simply said that the Faith that is exercised in conversion is the Gift of God.

Also your eisegesis of Ephesians 2:8 is just that!

 

[OldRegular]

It most certainly does, it says by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH. You are saved by grace, but it is accessed through faith. You must believe to receive or access grace.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We have access "by faith into this grace". Faith is the door you must pass through to enter into grace. No faith, no grace.

Once again, the scriptures show faith precedes being saved or regenerated.

Winman

Faith is a gift. That is what Ephesians 2:8 tells us.

 

[agedman]

This was a response to someone making a similar argument, perhaps it applies here as well.
"I understand what you're thinking, but that doesn't make "faith" a verb.... "

Perhaps you should have considered the common definitions from the Merriam-Webster dictionary. Click on the words for the link.

Definition of FAITH - used as a noun

1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>​

Definition of FAITH - used as a verb

: believe, trust​

 

[OldRegular]

The scriptures repeatedly show faith precedes regeneration or life.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This verse does not say "and that living ye might believe" no, it says "and that believeing ye might have life". Faith precedes regeneration.

Why do some believe and others do not?

I would agree that faith and regeneration happen at the same moment, but the scriptures ALWAYS show regeneration is the result of believeing. Faith is the cause, regeneration the effect.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jesus said "the dead" shall hear his voice. A person does not have to be regenerated to hear the word of God. Then Jesus said "they" (the dead) that hear "shall" live. Faith precedes life or regeneration.

John 5:25 says nothing about faith in those who are raised from spiritual death!

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus didn't say that everyone who believes "has" everlasting life here, he said every one which believes on him "may have" everlasting life. This absolutely shows faith preceding regeneration.

Does the above passage say that the one who believes has NOT been regenerated?

The scriptures ALWAYS show faith preceding regeneration. You can deny it all you want, but the scriptures show it over and over again.

Not really Winman. You are simply reading into Scripture what you want. As I have said endlessly FAITH is an essential aspect of Salvation and there is nothing in the passages you quote that indicates that Faith precedes regeneration. When you can explain why some believe while others do not then perhaps your argument will be stronger!

 

[agedman]

I would like to jump in to inquire about a few points you made in this post.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Jesus is speaking of the lost here. He said the way side are those "that hear". So the unregenerate can hear the word of God, just as John 5:25 says. But then we see the devil intervenes so that they do no believe. And we see that if they were to believe they would be saved. Again, faith precedes regeneration. It is shown over and over again.

I think you can assume that the unregenerate can hear, but it is also true that the "law of God" is given to each human. In effect that is what the unregenerate hears. The devil certainly comes and takes the word (law) out of them (searing the conscience) and they are lawless which is the evident state of the all unrighteous.

However, the prepared (good) earth is that which the farmer selected. worked, and provided the necessary processes to awaken the soil, received the word and a great harvest was the result.

It was not the "unregenerate" that Christ spoke about in John 5, but those who were in "Abraham's bosom." Those who like the beggar were at rest while the rich man was in torment. They were dead, yet having faith in the promise of God were not in torment. They heard the voice of God, and at the point of crucifixion many were seen walking the streets.

Do you find this agreeable with the Scriptures?

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jesus here compared salvation to the Jews who were bitten by the fiery serpents in the wilderness. They had to look upon the brass serpent before they were healed. Likewise, we must look to God in faith before we have life.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Do the scriptures teach we have to be regenerated to have the ability to look to God in faith? No. The scriptures teach we must look to God in faith to be saved. Faith precedes regeneration.

Here is a problem that I see in your statement.

When the folks looked, certainly they were healed, and most assuredly Christ was drawing alignment with the wilderness experience and the work of the Cross.

However, you assume that faith had to precede regeneration.

I am not certain that is accurate.

The person in the wilderness, having been bitten was not in the same condition as the unregenerate of the world. Certainly both had the appointment of death, but the unregenerate is dead already, condemned already as John 3 states. They don't have to wait on the great white throne they are already dead.

For the person to be saved, there must be life so that they may even look upon the cross.

The illustration that Christ gave is accurate ONLY if life is already present, the power to look is already given, the ability to look is within the understanding, and the authority to look is imparted with no regard to station, wealth, health or place bitten.

Certainly, there were those who died before the serpent was lifted in the wilderness. Unfortunately, there were those too sick to even lift their eyes, having succumbed to the venomous poison; just as the unregenerate has and is confirmed within them self that they are self right and die in their sin.

But those that looked had the ability to look for they were still alive enough to look.

Do you not find that consistent with the Scriptures?

Calvinism cannot provide even one verse in all of scripture that says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. All scripture shows a man must believe to be regenerated.

Calvinism is unscriptural.

I really do wish folks wouldn't try to cap off their argument with such statements.

It is far beneath the ability of both the poster and reader, brings nothing of substance to the argument presented, and only serves to inflame the emotionalism and not rationalism of both the reader and poster.

 

[convicted1]

Saving Faith is Saving Faith and it is the Gift of God. Saving Faith is given at regeneration as taught in Ephesians 2:1-10.

Regeneration or "the New Birth" is the work of the Holy Spirit in which those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sins are made spiritually alive. That is precisely what Jesus Christ teaches us in John 3:3ff.

Perhaps some should consider the following Scripture:

Matthew 16:16,17, KJV
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

We see that Peters declaration of Faith was the Gift of God!


As for the WOF people I don't doubt that there are many true believers among these people [Though I have doubts about some of the initiators of this heresy.] but they are completely confused about faith as are some on this Forum. They actually believe that faith is a "substance" apparently based on Hebrews 11:1. They actually believe that God exercised "faith" in creation! Weird!

The dead shall hear, and they that hear, shall live(John 5:25). Jesus didn't state that they that live/alive shall hear. Y'all have this backwards.

 

[convicted1]

Doesn't teach that.(keep reading)
correct
correct


The Bible not one times says one is regenerate before he believes. Neither does the Bible one time teach that one can believe before he is regenerate. There are no unbelieving born again people. What's being done here is a process that isn't in Scripture. I believe salvation, all parts, is a work of God alone. That includes regeneration, faith, justification, adoption..... When God regenerates a person, he doesn't wait till later to enable that person to believe. It happens at the exact same moment. You are putting a "first" that isn't in Scripture. It's not regenerate and then believes as in he believes at a later time. It's not believing and then is regenerate either as some teach. When God regenerates, you believe. Otherwise, you have a person that is born again with the Spirit abiding in him and is an unbelievers, which is not taught in Scripture.

What we have to be careful of is to not add something that isn't there because of what someone else believes. We believe Salvation is 100% of God. We want to emphasize that. Let's be careful not to over emphasize it. Just because some believe that belief is before regeneration(a spiritually dead person believing...) doesn't meant that the opposite is necessarily true.

Very well stated. One isn't given life(new birth), and then days, weeks, months, or years later placed in Christ. As soon as one believes, they are given life, and placed in Christ.

 

[DHK]

Winman

I have never said that Faith is not an essential aspect of salvation. i have simply said that the Faith that is exercised in conversion is the Gift of God.

Also your eisegesis of Ephesians 2:8 is just that!

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The core sentence is: "you are saved." These three words contain the subject and the verb of the entire verse. It is what the verse is all about--salvation.

You are saved:
You are saved by grace.
You are saved through faith.
You are not saved of your own self.
Salvation is the gift of God.
Salvation is not of works.
Salvation is not of works for if it were then some would boast in their works and not in God. Therefore salvation is a gift of God.

Salvation is always the gift of God. Never is faith referred to as the gift of God.
Rom.6:23: "For the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Faith is not referred to as the gift of God, nowhere.

 

[convicted1]

Ephesians 2:1-8 [NASB]
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Now the Apostle Paul is not talking to hose who are physically dead but to those who are:

1. dead in your trespasses and sins,

2. walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air

3. lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath

It is these that God:

being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, ... made us alive together with Christ.

Now where does it say that faith is exercised before spiritual life, regeneration, is given? Even the faith we exercise in conversion is the Gift of God!

Correct! Why thank you for stating my case for me. That's awful sweet of you Brother OR. It says we are made alive with Christ. When one is raised from their dead state, they are placed in Christ right then and there. They aren't raised to hear, walk around in "limbo" for possibly years, and then placed in Christ at a later date. When God raises us up, He saves us right then and there.

 

[agedman]

Very well stated. One isn't given life(new birth), and then days, weeks, months, or years later placed in Christ. As soon as one believes, they are given life, and placed in Christ.

I realize that this is what most are taught and believe. But, can you demonstrate by Scripture this is accurate.

Christ said that one must be "born again."

Peter said we are born again by the incorruptible seed (the word of God).

The question that I asked is not when salvation is given (the new birth) but when was the conception?

We assume that the conception and birth are at the same time, and they certainly may occur together.

But, it is also not inconsistent with what I have read to consider that regeneration is a continued process that starts with a conception and continues through out the believers life until we are given by the grace of God the new body. The regeneration process would include the feeding given by the Holy Spirit referred to as being renewed.

I have seen examples of the convicting work of the Holy Spirit evidenced in more than one place in the Scriptures.

I further have stated that there has to be something of value imparted to the dead in sin, for that person to sense, understand, be convicted and that the work of the Holy Spirit be realized in the new birth.

As I pointed earlier. The folks in the desert had to be alive to look at the serpent on the pole. The dead in trespasses and sin must be made alive to look to the Cross.

Examples: thief, eunuch, Cornelius, Saul/Paul. Each showed evidence of interest, conviction, and a certain "seeking" that only the regenerated are given.

The fallen have no interest other than some intellectual pursuit, no conviction other than what is generally given to the world which does not bring Godly sorrow - repentance - salvation, and certainly the Scriptures teach that the natural state of man is definitely not "seeking" God.

Therefore, there has to be some generated life given by God, before salvation.

Doesn't there?