By faith or by choice

[convicted1]

Yeah, they say that a spiritually dead person can't hear. Try telling that to the rich man in hell who conversed with Abraham. Abraham went as far as to call him "son".

 

[DaChaser1]

Yeah, they say that a spiritually dead person can't hear. Try telling that to the rich man in hell who conversed with Abraham. Abraham went as far as to call him "son".

Hard to get that from the passage, since many believe that the Lord was using this as a parable messagre, main point was that one MUST decide here and now for jesus, no second chance!

 

[convicted1]

Hard to get that from the passage, since many believe that the Lord was using this as a parable messagre, main point was that one MUST decide here and now for jesus, no second chance!

My Brother, that was not a parable. That man is there to this day. I can understand why you think this. This shoots a gaping hole in your "spiritually dead can hear nothing" theology.

 

[Winman]

Yeah, they say that a spiritually dead person can't hear. Try telling that to the rich man in hell who conversed with Abraham. Abraham went as far as to call him "son".

If the dead cannot hear Jesus's words, then Jesus is not powerful enough to speak to the dead. This is what they are teaching.

Luk 8:49 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.
50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

Here the daughter of a ruler of the synagogue had died. Jesus told them not to fear, but believe and she shall be made whole. Once again, this shows faith preceding life.

Luk 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.


Was this young girl alive when Jesus commanded her to rise? No. Her spirit was not in her body, and the body without the spirit is dead.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

When Jesus commanded this young girl to rise, she was dead. She was not alive, her spirit was not in her body. It was only AFTER Jesus spoke to her that her spirit returned to her body and she was alive again.

The word of God is quick and powerful. It is able to speak to the spiritually (and physically) dead. And when God speaks, the dead can hear it, otherwise God would also be unable to speak to them. To deny that God and Jesus can speak to the dead is to deny his power.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Again, Jesus can speak to the dead, and if the dead will hear him, they shall be made alive.

 

[DaChaser1]

My Brother, that was not a parable. That man is there to this day. I can understand why you think this. This shoots a gaping hole in your "spiritually dead can hear nothing" theology.

not just me, as MANY sincere good bible expositors have seen it the same way!

 

[convicted1]

not just me, as MANY sincere good bible expositors have seen it the same way!

Well, Jesus went into GREAT detail, even going as far as to use Abraham's name.

 

[convicted1]

If the dead cannot hear Jesus's words, then Jesus is not powerful enough to speak to the dead. This is what they are teaching.

Luk 8:49 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.
50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

Here the daughter of a ruler of the synagogue had died. Jesus told them not to fear, but believe and she shall be made whole. Once again, this shows faith preceding life.

Luk 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.


Was this young girl alive when Jesus commanded her to rise? No. Her spirit was not in her body, and the body without the spirit is dead.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

When Jesus commanded this young girl to rise, she was dead. She was not alive, her spirit was not in her body. It was only AFTER Jesus spoke to her that her spirit returned to her body and she was alive again.

The word of God is quick and powerful. It is able to speak to the spiritually (and physically) dead. And when God speaks, the dead can hear it, otherwise God would also be unable to speak to them. To deny that God and Jesus can speak to the dead is to deny his power.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Again, Jesus can speak to the dead, and if the dead will hear him, they shall be made alive.

AMEN. :jesus::godisgood::jesus::godisgood:

 

[jbh28]

No, it doesn't, and such an interpretation violates the rest of Scripture--very simple and basic Scripture such as "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved."

"For by grace are ye saved."
"by grace" is simply a prepositional adverbial phrase that defines the verb "are saved," giving the means. It refers to the grace of God at the cross. Through God's grace of the atoning work of Christ no man can be saved. That is the means by which we are saved. The grace equals the work of Christ--the means by which we are saved. It is simply a prepositional phrase. You ought to diagram this sentence.

"....are ye saved through faith"
"through faith" is another prepositional adverbial phrase that again defines the verb "are saved," this time giving how we are saved. We are saved through faith. There is no other way.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
Salvation is still the subject here. "Through faith" is just another prepositional phrase defining the verb, how we are saved--through faith, in harmony with the rest of Scripture. One doesn't proceed from the other.
IT refers to the subject of salvation. Salvation is the gift of God.

The verse doesn't not mention the origin of either grace or faith. The "it" refers back to the subject "you are saved," or salvation. Salvation is the gift of God. Those prepositional phrases have nothing to do with "gift of God." Grace originates with God as it always does. That is consistent with Scripture. But faith does not originate with God. It never does, which is also consistent with Scripture.

The Bible never says:
Believe with the belief that God gave you, on the Lord Jesus Christ.
The belief that the jailor had was his own belief, his own faith. If it wasn't he was not able to be saved.

of course it was his own belief. If God gives you faith, then it's your faith. And the passage doesn't say believe with the belief you created yourself. Your argument doesn't follow. I say I believe because God enabled me to believe. You say you created your own ability to believe. Faith is a gift of God. Praise him for your ability to believe. He's the one that opened your eyes and heart so that you can believe.

 

[jbh28]

I am not responding to what others believe by over compensating.

I am telling you that the Bible teaches that regeneration precedes faith.

The unregenerate CANNOT believe.

He must CEASE being ONLY a natural man because the natural man receiveth not the things of God, neither can he.

He must become ALIVE to be able to believe.

Please show me a passage that says that there is a person that is regenerate but hasn't believed yet. You are right in what you say, I believe you are taking it too far when you say regeneration precedes faith. You believe faith is a gift from God right? Then why would God regenerate a person but not enable him to believe? If you say that God enabled him when he regenerates him, then you would agree with me that they happen at the same time.

 

[kyredneck]

... This shoots a gaping hole in your "spiritually dead can hear nothing" theology.

“and a certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man`s table; yea, even the dogs come and licked his sores.”

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.”

“And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one rise from the dead.”

The Ethiopian cannot change his skin, or the leopard his spots. The rich man went into judgment because his works were evil. He had not the law written upon his heart, he lacked the nature for good works or faith.

 

[Skandelon]

Please show me a passage that says that there is a person that is regenerate but hasn't believed yet. You are right in what you say, I believe you are taking it too far when you say regeneration precedes faith. You believe faith is a gift from God right? Then why would God regenerate a person but not enable him to believe? If you say that God enabled him when he regenerates him, then you would agree with me that they happen at the same time.

While I would be more in agreement with your line of reasoning, may I still interject with a question?

If in your system of thought, no one seeks God, then how do you explain those experiences where people struggle over a long period of time seeking to investigate the claims of scripture only to come to faith later? Like Josh McDowell or Lee Strobel?

I think Luke would say that the HS regenerated them in order to make them start the seeking process and later they come to faith (is that right Luke?) But what do you say? What caused them to seek out the things of God if they haven't yet been regenerated?

 

[DHK]

of course it was his own belief. If God gives you faith, then it's your faith. And the passage doesn't say believe with the belief you created yourself. Your argument doesn't follow. ]I say I believe because God enabled me to believe.

That is your inference from Scripture which the Bible doesn't teach. You have no support from the Bible.

You say you created your own ability to believe. Faith is a gift of God. Praise him for your ability to believe. He's the one that opened your eyes and heart so that you can believe.

Where do you get this mantra: "Faith is a gift of God," from. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that. I just demonstrated that you cannot use Eph.2:8,9. It is grammatically incorrect to do so.

 

[kyredneck]

Please show me a passage that says that there is a person that is regenerate but hasn't believed yet......

Actually there's quite a few of them when the eye is keen to see them. Here's one:

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

 

[jbh28]

That is your inference from Scripture which the Bible doesn't teach. You have no support from the Bible.

As I've corrected you many times, saying I have no "support from the Bible" is very false. You may disagree with my support, but don't say I have no support

Where do you get this mantra: "Faith is a gift of God," from. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that. I just demonstrated that you cannot use Eph.2:8,9. It is grammatically incorrect to do so.

No, it is grammatically correct to do so. there is nothing at all to say that faith cannot be included as a gift from God. The entire context of Ephesians is that it's not you but God that saves. To pull out faith and claim that you did it is a total slap in the face to what Paul is addressing. You cannot boast in your salvation...you did nothing...

 

[jbh28]

Actually there's quite a few of them when the eye is keen to see them. Here's one:

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

Ok, I must not have a "keen eye." Explain it to me. Where does it say that he is regenerate here? I'm headed out, so I haven't had time to look at the entire context yet.

 

[jbh28]

While I would be more in agreement with your line of reasoning, may I still interject with a question?

If in your system of thought, no one seeks God, then how do you explain those experiences where people struggle over a long period of time seeking to investigate the claims of scripture only to come to faith later? Like Josh McDowell or Lee Strobel?

I think Luke would say that the HS regenerated them in order to make them start the seeking process and later they come to faith (is that right Luke?) But what do you say? What caused them to seek out the things of God if they haven't yet been regenerated?

God is seeking after them. You are correct on that's where they get the idea of regeneration preceding faith. God is convicting them. They are seeking, meaning that haven't found it yet. And of course what are these people seeking? Do they have a void in their lives and seeking to fill that. The story of the author of There is a Redeemer is a good picture of this. They kept looking for joy and never found it until they were saved.

 

[preacher4truth]

Actually there's quite a few of them when the eye is keen to see them. Here's one:

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

Let me ask you this.

We have some neighbors who do good things, like give to others, things like that. This means they're "saved", "sheep", what in your theology? I say this because you distinguish between these things.

Now, Oprah has a similar "Gospel" in that she believes people like this (like those I've described above) are "little christs" and have "light" in them, have "christ consciousness" and are "saved" "on their way to heaven" &c. Do you agree with her assessment?

 

[Winman]

God is seeking after them. You are correct on that's where they get the idea of regeneration preceding faith. God is convicting them. They are seeking, meaning that haven't found it yet. And of course what are these people seeking? Do they have a void in their lives and seeking to fill that. The story of the author of There is a Redeemer is a good picture of this. They kept looking for joy and never found it until they were saved.

Wait a minute, you've told me numerous times that the unregenerate will never will to seek God. You've said the unregenerate will always follow their nature and do what they desire, and they will always desire to reject God.

Now today you change your tune and say the unregenerate do seek God.

Which is it, what do you truly believe?

 

[DHK]

As I've corrected you many times, saying I have no "support from the Bible" is very false. You may disagree with my support, but don't say I have no support
No, it is grammatically correct to do so. there is nothing at all to say that faith cannot be included as a gift from God. The entire context of Ephesians is that it's not you but God that saves. To pull out faith and claim that you did it is a total slap in the face to what Paul is addressing. You cannot boast in your salvation...you did nothing...

Your last statement is telling.
First I do not boast in my salvation. Why the false accusation?
That presupposition is the reason for your eisigesis. You are reading into Eph.2:8,9 that which is grammatically impossible. It does not say that faith is a gift of God. It clearly says that Salvation is a gift of God. The "it" refers to salvation, not faith. "Through faith" is simply a prepositional phrase that defines how we got saved. "It is of faith." is another complete sentence in and of itself that refers back to the subject of the prior sentence.

 

[kyredneck]

Ok, I must not have a "keen eye." Explain it to me. Where does it say that he is regenerate here? I'm headed out, so I haven't had time to look at the entire context yet.

You can't see that these were 'doing the truth' PRIOR to coming to the light? That God had aleady wrought within them to do good works?

You don't see in vv 3-5 that before one can enter into or even see the kingdom of God one must first be born from above?

Here's another for your perusal; compare these two passages (this is BEFORE Nathaniel had ever met Christ):

but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2:29

Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Jn 1:47