By faith or by choice

[Earth Wind and Fire]

While I would be more in agreement with your line of reasoning, may I still interject with a question?

If in your system of thought, no one seeks God, then how do you explain those experiences where people struggle over a long period of time seeking to investigate the claims of scripture only to come to faith later? Like Josh McDowell or Lee Strobel?

I think Luke would say that the HS regenerated them in order to make them start the seeking process and later they come to faith (is that right Luke?) But what do you say? What caused them to seek out the things of God if they haven't yet been regenerated?

Oh I totally disagree with your analysis of Luke. I have spoken to him & read what he has written. He isnt saying a sinner doesnt convince himself that he is corrupt & suddenly saved & begins the "Born Again" Process. Rather that they convince themselves that they are "Born Again" & members of Church Communities and "THINK" their not sinners. Then pontificate to others while they truly are not saved primarily because there is no evidence they have been saved in the first place. Figure that one out! :laugh:

Botton line....you dont know what your talking about! :wavey:

 

[preacher4truth]

Oh I totally disagree with your analysis of Luke. I have spoken to him & read what he has written. He isnt saying a sinner doesnt convince himself that he is corrupt & suddenly saved & begins the "Born Again" Process. Rather that they convince themselves that they are "Born Again" & members of Church Communities and "THINK" their not sinners. Then pontificate to others while they truly are not saved primarily because there is no evidence they have been saved in the first place. Figure that one out! :laugh:

Botton line....you dont know what your talking about! :wavey:

Which isn't a rarity by any means. :type:

 

[Skandelon]

God is seeking after them. You are correct on that's where they get the idea of regeneration preceding faith. God is convicting them. They are seeking, meaning that haven't found it yet. And of course what are these people seeking? Do they have a void in their lives and seeking to fill that. The story of the author of There is a Redeemer is a good picture of this. They kept looking for joy and never found it until they were saved.

So, you believe God is convicting them and in essence drawing them to seek out truth, but its not until they are regenerated that they actually have faith (at that very moment)? Right?

Is it your understanding that Luke believes that men are regenerated thus causing them to start the seeking process only to come to faith sometime later?

 

[Skandelon]

Oh I totally disagree with your analysis of Luke. I have spoken to him & read what he has written. He isnt saying a sinner doesnt convince himself that he is corrupt & suddenly saved & begins the "Born Again" Process. Rather that they convince themselves that they are "Born Again" & members of Church Communities and "THINK" their not sinners. Then pontificate to others while they truly are not saved primarily because there is no evidence they have been saved in the first place.

I have no idea what this means.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Which isn't a rarity by any means. :type:

ROFL That was palpable!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have no idea what this means.

Evidently, however it is up to Luke to explain so I will leave it there for the time being unless he chooses to NOT address it. Then I most certainly will.

 

[Skandelon]

He isnt saying a sinner doesnt convince himself that he is corrupt & suddenly saved & begins the "Born Again" Process. Rather that they convince themselves that they are "Born Again" & members of Church Communities and "THINK" their not sinners. Then pontificate to others while they truly are not saved primarily because there is no evidence they have been saved in the first place.

I'd buy anyone a beer if they could discern this convoluted statement. I mean, have you read it? Wow. Maybe JesusFan helped you with the wording? :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'd buy anyone a beer if they could discern this convoluted statement. I mean, have you read it? Wow. Maybe JesusFan helped you with the wording? :laugh:

What passes for convoluted ....wait a minute, does that beer go with a Tx BBQ? I will add that you gotta invite JF & I will let him splain to ya! :laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

What passes for convoluted ....wait a minute, does that beer go with a Tx BBQ? I will add that you gotta invite JF & I will let him splain to ya! :laugh:

You got a deal! :thumbs:

 

[OldRegular]

No, it is grammatically correct to do so. there is nothing at all to say that faith cannot be included as a gift from God. The entire context of Ephesians is that it's not you but God that saves. To pull out faith and claim that you did it is a total slap in the face to what Paul is addressing. You cannot boast in your salvation...you did nothing...

Very well said!:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Why is it that Christians don't want to give all glory to God for His gift of Salvation?

 

[OldRegular]

Now, let us take a look at the word "quicken(s)":

G2227 zōopoieō ζῳοποιέω


1) to produce alive, begat or bear living young

2) to cause to live, make alive, give life

a) by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate

b) to restore to life

c) to give increase of life: thus of physical life

d) of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life

3) metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing


When we are quickened, we are made alive. If we are alive, we are alive in Christ. There is no life outside of Jesus. We aren't made alive, and then, conceivivably(sp?), months later, placed in Christ.

So let us take a look at the word quicken using the definition of quicken that you provide. In Ephesians 2:4, 5 we read: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved;]

So we see that God "begat or caused to live" those who were dead in sins. Now why did God do this? Because of our faith? NO! Because of his great love wherewith he loved us. Nothing else required but the love of God! So why not just give all glory to God for His Gift of Salvation? Can you tell me why anyone can say that "God saved me because of my faith?"

 

[OldRegular]

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This verse here states that the dead that hear, shall live. Jesus didn't say that they that live shall hear. That's entirely different than what you are espousing. Spiritual death=seperation from God.

Tell me convicted1. Why don't all the dead hear? Why is it that only some hear? Surely you are not teaching universal salvation are you?