By grace and grace alone

[gb93433]

Faith always produces some kind of work. If faith in Chrst then there are present works in accordance with Christ. Even the thief on the cross had works. His faith was recorded. He showed his faith in the dialog with Jesus and confessed Christ.

Hebrews 11:6, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

A.T. Roberson writes about Eph. 2:8,9, '"Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours.'

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> There is no conflict between Paul and James. We are saved through faith alone not works. But faith must produce good works or it is dead.

I never said there was a conflict.

However, where does it ever say "faith alone" in Scripture the way you are using it? Another thing, is it really faith alone? Isn't faith alone dead? Does dead faith do any good? Really, think of what you are saying. You say faith alone, but then you put a disclaimer on it. If we had no works that lined up with faith, would that be effective enough to mediate salvation to someone?

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Do good works justify us? Not in the least! We are no longer under the law but under grace.

Grace produces good works from a willing spirit regenerated by the Holy Spirit not from the coercion of the law. A living faith brings forth good fruit. A good tree does not bring forth evil fruit.

We are never saved by our good fruit because our obedience is never perfect (Rom 7:14-25, Gal. 5:17). The Holy Spirit alone keeps us in the true faith not our good works (Rom. 8:1). However, good works are evidence of the presence and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Frank]

The Bible teaches we are saved by the gospel of Christ. It is the power of God unto salvation unto everyone that believeth to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed form faith unto faith: as it is written the just shall live by faith. Romans 1:16,17.

Jesus said in Mark 1: 15, The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye and believe the gospel.

Jesus said in Mt. 10:32, Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus said in Mark 16:16,  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jesus said in John 3:3-5, Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus said in Luke 24:44-49,And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46  And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47  And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48  And ye are witnesses of these things.
49  And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Jesus said in Mt. 26:28, For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The Bible says in Eph. 1:7,In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Jesus said in Mt. 7:21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The Bible does not espouse anything only saves.

 

[Yelsew]

Well let's see if we can reduce this to a formula. The factors are Grace, Works, and Faith, there isn't another factor mentioned in Scripture.

So,

Grace + Works = What?

Grace + ? = What?

Works + ? = Nothing!

Faith + Grace + Works + ? = Salvation
Faith + Works = Salvation
Faith + Grace = Salvation
Faith = Salvation

If you remove Faith from any of the equations, you do not have salvation

Therefore Faith alone equals Salvation.

 

[John Gilmore]

Grace of God + Merit of Christ + Faith apprehending the Promise of the Gospel = Salvation

Works = 0
Decision for Christ = 0
Merits of the Saints = 0
Time in Purgatory = 0
Sacrifice of the Mass = 0
Indulgences = 0

 

[Yelsew]

Grace of God + Merit of Christ + Faith apprehending the Promise of the Gospel = Salvation

If one removes merit of Christ from the equation, does Grace of God + Faith still equal Salvation?

If one removes grace from the equation, does Merit + Faith still equal salvation?

If one removes faith from the equation does Grace + merit still equal salvation?

 

[neal4christ]

Do good works justify us?

John,

Does faith alone justify us? No. Again, look at James 2:24 (RSV): You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. I am NOT saying that works alone justifies one. It is clear from this chapter in James that faith + works justifies because faith alone is dead.

And please notice that I am referring to justification, not salvation. Salvation is wholly and totally because of the grace of God. Period.

Yelsew,

I am sorry, but faith does not save us. Faith is the means through which God mediates his grace for our salvation. It is not the faith that saves, it is God's grace. You can't get around the clear statement of Ephesians 2:8 unless you do acrobatics: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God. (RSV) What are we saved by? Grace. It doesn't get any clearer. You could have all the faith in the world, but that would not save you without God's grace.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Do good works justify us?

John,

Does faith alone justify us? No. Again, look at James 2:24 (RSV): You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. I am NOT saying that works alone justifies one. It is clear from this chapter in James that faith + works justifies because faith alone is dead.

And please notice that I am referring to justification, not salvation. Salvation is wholly and totally because of the grace of God. Period.

Yelsew,

I am sorry, but faith does not save us. Faith is the means through which God mediates his grace for our salvation. It is not the faith that saves, it is God's grace. You can't get around the clear statement of Ephesians 2:8 unless you do acrobatics: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God. (RSV) What are we saved by? Grace. It doesn't get any clearer. You could have all the faith in the world, but that would not save you without God's grace.

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]It should be easy enough for you to prove that Grace is what saves. Graph it for us, Demonstrate that grace plus nothing else saves us. If you can do that, You will win me over if you cannot do that then you must rethink your position.

You see, by declaring that grace is what saves you negate the words of Jesus who is God, when He said the Whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life ( which is salvation), and in John 3:18 that whoever believes is not judged but whoever believeth not is judged already.

NOW I don't know about you, but to me the Words of God carry eminently more weight that those of his Apostles. Jesus tells us how to get saved, His apostles tell us how to live once we that the "getting saved" part right.

I trust that you will at least attempt to graph Grace alone saves, so that we can see it graphically.

 

[Yelsew]

Neal4Christ,
You might just consider the following, (prove me wrong if you care to).

For by grace (the environment where it all happens) you have been saved through faith (just like Jesus said); and this (salvation) is not your own doing, it (Salvation) is the gift of God. (RSV)

 

[CatholicConvert]

Grace of God + Merit of Christ + Faith apprehending the Promise of the Gospel = Salvation

Wrong. Your above equation equals the BEGINNING of salvation.

What your heretic founder of Lutheranism didn't understand is that salvation is a process, a journey. In the Eastern Church, we refer to it as "theosis", that is, becoming like Christ. He thought it was a once and done deal. Very wrong.
That is not how covenant works.

Works = 0

Wrong again. Not what either Jesus or St. Paul said. Works are an integral part of the salvation process. As I posted in my opening thread, salvation and eternal life are all of God's grace, yet in the mystery of God, once we have been saved by grace alone without our works, we are called upon to do works and will be judged by our works on the Last Day. Read John 5: 28 -29 and Romans 2: 5 - 10 and tell me that works equals 0.

Decision for Christ = 0

Well, at least you got that one right, for the Bible nowhere calls for a mere decision for Christ. Salvation is sacramental in nature. It is through the sacraments that we enter into and experience the covenant with God through Christ. That is why Jesus said that if you do not eat His Flesh (not the Lutheran version, the REAL thing) and drink His Blood....YE HAVE NOT LIFE!!

Merits of the Saints = 0

Wrong again. I don't wish to discuss this here, but there is merit of one for another found in the Bible. It is a covenantal principle.

Time in Purgatory = 0

Time in purgatory cannot bring us into Christ. The Sacrament of Baptism alone does that according to scripture. But if there is no cleansing of the sins you have sticking to you at death, then you are in deep weeds, pal!! Your Lutheran idea of "forensic justification" was properly deemed a "legal fiction" at the Council of Trent. The idea of sins being removed once and forever at the time of your baptism into Christ was never taught in the Church until Luther made it up from his wretched exegesis of scripture. Purgation is a part of the salvation process because A) only that which is pure, clean, sinless, and holy can get into Heaven B) most all people die with some sin on their souls C) the teaching of "forensic justification" or so called "imputed righteousness" as Protestantism teaches it, is a MYTH not supported by the Greek in the Romans text. Get Robert Sungenis' brilliant book NOT BY FAITH ALONE. He DEMOLISHES that premise in over 700+ well written pages. You don't have a leg to stand on.

Sacrifice of the Mass = 0

Man, you make a HABIT of being wrong, don't you!! In the process of salvation and being in the covenant, we must have a real and true righteousness which dwells within us. The Bible says that this righteousness is JESUS CHRIST. Therefore, we need Him to be truly righteous and cleansed from our sins as we journey along life's path. The Mass is the covnantal meal by which sins are forgiven and the covenant is restored. What you know about the covenant could fit in a thimble and you'd have room for a Mack truck!!

Indulgences = 0

I cannot address this because as an Eastern Christian, it is not part of our overall understanding and I have not studied it deeply. However, if the Roman rite teaches it, it must be correct. End of statement.

Works are an invaluable part of salvation, for it is by works that we keep the covenant of God and both restore and continue in our union with Him. But as I wrote in the first post, even our works are not of ourselves ALONE, but are entirely made possible by God's grace. We are called upon to co-operate with God's grace and His calling us to good works by the exercise of our will. However, when we do that, it is only by Him that we succeed, and only BY OURSELVES that we rebel and choose to fail, falling into sin and separation from our union with God until we repent and return to Him.

 

[GraceSaves]

Yelsew,

You are effectively arguing that we are not saved by grace alone. Therefore, since you argue that we are saved by "faith alone," the word "alone" excludes grace. Therefore, you have removed grace from our salvation.

Congratulations.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
It should be easy enough for you to prove that Grace is what saves. Graph it for us, Demonstrate that grace plus nothing else saves us.

Wow.

We are saved BY what? Grace. Scripture says so.
How do we get this grace? THROUGH faith.

So, we are saved BY grace THROUGH faith. We are not saved BY faith THROUGH grace. So, we are not saved BY faith.

Further, he never said "grace plus nothing else." Those are your words, and you are showing you don't understand the questions at hand.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Well let's see if we can reduce this to a formula. The factors are Grace, Works, and Faith, there isn't another factor mentioned in Scripture.

So,

Grace + Works = What?

Grace + ? = What?

Works + ? = Nothing!

Faith + Grace + Works + ? = Salvation
Faith + Works = Salvation
Faith + Grace = Salvation
Faith = Salvation

If you remove Faith from any of the equations, you do not have salvation

Therefore Faith alone equals Salvation.

Are you serious? That is totally invalid logic.

All you proved is that without faith there cannot be salvation. You then jumped and said "faith alone equals salvation." No it doesn't, and especially not from your argument. You've shown that faith is essential, but nothing in your post shows it as all that is needed. Nothing at all there to demonstrate that.

 

[GraceSaves]

John Gilmore,

You seem to be equating "good works" with "works of the law." Why is that?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
Yelsew,

You are effectively arguing that we are not saved by grace alone. Therefore, since you argue that we are saved by "faith alone," the word "alone" excludes grace. Therefore, you have removed grace from our salvation.

Congratulations.

Not true, Grace is the environment in which one "hears the word of God" and "comes to faith" which results in "salvation". In other words, GRACE enables FAITH, but it through faith that we are saved.

Grace, like rain is for the righteous and unrighteous alike. If not for God's grace, man's first sin would be his last, because God would administer his Justice upon mankind. The wage paid for sin is death. First sin = last sin. But because God is behaving toward mankind in accordance with his grace, man has time to come to faith in God, the father and the son.

Grace is not a commodity, it cannot be given from one to the other, it remains entirely an attribute of the one having it. We all have a measure of Grace that we freely "give" to those we know and trust and our loved ones. But no matter how much we are accused of giving, we retain the entire amount we have.

Faith is not a commodity, it belongs exclusively to the one in whom it is found. It cannot be given from one to another, not even from Deity who does not have faith to the created who are required to have it.

Salvation is not a commodity, but it is a Gift of God to those who have faith.

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Do good works justify us?

John,

Does faith alone justify us? No. Again, look at James 2:24 (RSV): You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. I am NOT saying that works alone justifies one. It is clear from this chapter in James that faith + works justifies because faith alone is dead.

And please notice that I am referring to justification, not salvation. Salvation is wholly and totally because of the grace of God. Period.

</font>[/QUOTE]We may be using different definitions of the term "justification." Salvation is wholly and totally because of the grace of God. Man does not cooperate in any way. However, after man has been saved by grace alone, he does cooperate in the works that follow. As James says in chapter 2, verse 18, "I show thee my faith by my works."

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Well let's see if we can reduce this to a formula. The factors are Grace, Works, and Faith, there isn't another factor mentioned in Scripture.

So,

Grace + Works = What?

Grace + ? = What?

Works + ? = Nothing!

Faith + Grace + Works + ? = Salvation
Faith + Works = Salvation
Faith + Grace = Salvation
Faith = Salvation

If you remove Faith from any of the equations, you do not have salvation

Therefore Faith alone equals Salvation.

Are you serious? That is totally invalid logic.

All you proved is that without faith there cannot be salvation. You then jumped and said "faith alone equals salvation." No it doesn't, and especially not from your argument. You've shown that faith is essential, but nothing in your post shows it as all that is needed. Nothing at all there to demonstrate that. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you believe Jesus when he said in John 3:16 that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. Where does Jesus say that you must have grace to be saved? Of course you must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that Jesus and the father are one, like He said.

Jesus said in John 3:18 that Believers are not judged, but unbelievers are judged by their unbelief. Not one word from God the Son about grace being what saves.

However, Jesus is known as the Gift of Grace to all mankind. So Grace makes it possible for all mankind to have faith, but not all men have faith in Jesus so I guess grace does not save, but only enables faith.

Jesus justifies us through the atonement, Through faith in God we are sanctified, for faith is what separates the believers from the unbelievers...the sheep from the goats.

Why is it not Grace that atones, or grace that separates, or Grace that keeps the believers from being judged.

The truth stands, it is faith whereby we are saved! Believe it or not!

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
The idea of sins being removed once and forever at the time of your baptism into Christ was never taught in the Church until Luther made it up from his wretched exegesis of scripture.

Like his wretched exegesis of, "Be baptized and wash away thy sins." Acts 2:38? Or, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" Gal. 3:26?

The Mass is the covnantal meal by which sins are forgiven and the covenant is restored.

The Holy Supper confers the forgiveness of sins, not because the mass is a sacrifice we offer up to God, but because Christ freely gives us His body and blood in the sacrament.

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
John Gilmore,

You seem to be equating "good works" with "works of the law." Why is that?

If I have, I apologize. "Works of the law" are done by those under the law. "Good works" are done by those under grace.

 

[neal4christ]

You see, by declaring that grace is what saves you negate the words of Jesus who is God, when He said the Whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life ( which is salvation), and in John 3:18 that whoever believes is not judged but whoever believeth not is judged already.

Okay. I have not denied this. You can have ALL the faith in the world, but that does not earn you salvation without God's grace. It is only because of God's grace that the "whosoever believeth" are saved. It is clear that it is by grace that we are saved through faith. What is so hard to understand about that? You seem to be trying to make the verse say "We are saved through faith." But it is by grace. Without that, the faith is meaningless.

I agree that faith (worked out) is a necessary part in salvation because God chose for it to be that way. However, without his grace, it would mean nothing.

Please explain where you get your definition of grace (something about the environment). I have never seen that before and that sounds nothing like what I understand grace to be. And what do you want me to graph? You have to have coordinates to graph something and this is not a mathematical equation. If you want me to put my finite understanding to Ephesians 2:8 like you did, then here you go:

For by grace (God's unmerited favor) you have been saved through faith; and this (either salvation or the faith, I am uncertain) is not your own doing, it (again, either salvation or faith) is the gift of God. (RSV)

Is that what you want? If not, I don't know what else to give. I can't believe you can even question the fact that without God's grace our faith would be meaningless. God could just as well rejected us all together and made no means for salvation, and would have been perfectly right to do so. But he showed us unmerited favor (grace) and this makes any hope of salvation possible. We don't deserve salvation. He doesn't owe it to us. We didn't earn it. It is available because of his grace.

God Bless,
Neal