neal4christ
New Member
Thanks for the clarification, John. I think our wires were somewhat crossed. But, anywho, I think I am following what you are saying now.
In Christ,
Neal
In Christ,
Neal
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By grace and grace alone
- Thread starter CatholicConvert
- Start date
GraceSaves
New Member
If we are saved THROUGH faith, as you state, then we are not saved BY it. Those have two different meanings. Paul says we are saved THROUGH faith, not BY it. He says we are saved BY grace. Therefore, it is GRACE that saves us, and we receive this grace THROUGH faith. To say otherwise is to change Paul's words.
You just said that God does not give us faith. You believe this?
Indeed, and we receive salvation by grace through faith. Not by faith alone.
CatholicConvert
New Member
Get off it John! What kind of la la land are you living in anyway? His Body and Blood are and can only be a sacrifice. How many scriptures will I have to post to show you this? They are what He came to give us for the sins of the world and our personal sins and now you have the audacity to sit there and tell me that the Body and Blood are NOT a sacrifice?
You say the "Holy Supper" forgives sins. John, sin is ONLY forgiven with a sacrifice!!
It is sometimes beyond strange watching folks deny their own words in one paragraph in order to try to keep from admitting the Catholic position.
John Gilmore
New Member
Get off it John! What kind of la la land are you living in anyway? His Body and Blood are and can only be a sacrifice. How many scriptures will I have to post to show you this? They are what He came to give us for the sins of the world and our personal sins and now you have the audacity to sit there and tell me that the Body and Blood are NOT a sacrifice?
You say the "Holy Supper" forgives sins. John, sin is ONLY forgiven with a sacrifice!!
It is sometimes beyond strange watching folks deny their own words in one paragraph in order to try to keep from admitting the Catholic position. </font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps, Luther can explain it better than I can:
Just as you cannot make out of the Gospel a sacrifice or a work, so you cannot make a sacrifice or a work out of this sacrament; for this sacrament is the Gospel...
They made the sacrament which they should accept from God, namely, the body and blood of Christ, into a sacrifice and have offered it to the selfsame God... Furthermore, they do not regard Christ's body and blood as a sacrifice of thanksgiving, but as a sacrifice of works in which they do not thank God for His grace, but obtain merits for themselves and others and first and foremost, secure grace. Thus Christ has not won grace for us, but we want to win grace ourselves through our works by offering to God His Son's body and blood.
Ray Berrian
New Member
By Christ's grace . . . . through faith . . . ' [Ephesians 2:8]
Ray Berrian
New Member
All converts to Jesus Christ have come to Him via belief in Jesus Christ. In Acts 2:21,38 and Acts 16:31, for example, the pivotal factor was and remains today, in believing and trusting in Him. We are not saved by eating but by believing. No amount of bread or wine brings salvation.
Catholic Convert true to what he thinks, says, 'The Holy Supper confers the forgiveness of sins, not because the mass is a sacrifice we offer up to God, but because Christ freely gives us His body and blood in the sacrament.
No where in the Bible does Paul or Peter say, "Come over here out of the desert heat under this tree, we will share the Eucharist."
If God speaking through St. Luke is correct we must believe that our Lord has said, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved . . . '
The Eucharist is a very spiritual and yet a memorial honoring His death for us[I Corinthians 11:23] until He comes again in the rapture. [I Corinthians 11:26 & I Thessalonians 4:17]
Catholic Convert true to what he thinks, says, 'The Holy Supper confers the forgiveness of sins, not because the mass is a sacrifice we offer up to God, but because Christ freely gives us His body and blood in the sacrament.
No where in the Bible does Paul or Peter say, "Come over here out of the desert heat under this tree, we will share the Eucharist."
If God speaking through St. Luke is correct we must believe that our Lord has said, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved . . . '
The Eucharist is a very spiritual and yet a memorial honoring His death for us[I Corinthians 11:23] until He comes again in the rapture. [I Corinthians 11:26 & I Thessalonians 4:17]
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Grace saves
An individual's FAITH is like a mark one has that Identifies the one to be saved by God. Figuratively speaking, Faith can be viewed as a tube through which when one who has faith is kept separated while among unbelievers. The tube is what one "travels through" to the end of this natural life, the end of the tube, where the one with faith is separated permanently from the unbelievers is what one passes from death into life eternal.
You cannot give your faith to another, nor can another give their faith to you. God cannot give His Grace and you cannot give yours. God behaves in accordance with his Grace and you likewise behave in accordance with your grace. You as a human behave in accordance with your faith. Little faith? Poor spiritual behavior, Lot of faith, strong spiritual behavior.
If we are saved THROUGH faith, as you state, then we are not saved BY it. Those have two different meanings. Paul says we are saved THROUGH faith, not BY it. He says we are saved BY grace. Therefore, it is GRACE that saves us, and we receive this grace THROUGH faith. To say otherwise is to change Paul's words.</font>[/QUOTE]You are right, FAITH HAS NO SAVING POWER. ALL SAVING IS DONE BY GOD, God is the only one with power to save anyone, and his SAVING power extends to all mankind, but is effective only on those who have faith, HE SAID SO!.
An individual's FAITH is like a mark one has that Identifies the one to be saved by God. Figuratively speaking, Faith can be viewed as a tube through which when one who has faith is kept separated while among unbelievers. The tube is what one "travels through" to the end of this natural life, the end of the tube, where the one with faith is separated permanently from the unbelievers is what one passes from death into life eternal.
You cannot give your faith to another, nor can another give their faith to you. God cannot give His Grace and you cannot give yours. God behaves in accordance with his Grace and you likewise behave in accordance with your grace. You as a human behave in accordance with your faith. Little faith? Poor spiritual behavior, Lot of faith, strong spiritual behavior.
You just said that God does not give us faith. You believe this?</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, God has no faith to give. God is omniscient (all knowing) and all seeing. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen". So why would Omniscient, all-seeing God need or even have faith? If you can give me one good reason for God to have faith, you might be able to convince me that he does in fact have it and can therefore give it to man. God has all knowledge from eternity to eternity. And, He sees all there is to see. God does not hope for anything for himself. God from eternity to eternity has been, is, and will be self-sufficient, requiring nothing, hoping for nothing, and not blinded to anything. So, why would God ever need faith?
Y
Yelsew
Guest
John,
Does faith alone justify us? No. Again, look at James 2:24 (RSV): You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. I am NOT saying that works alone justifies one. It is clear from this chapter in James that faith + works justifies because faith alone is dead.
And please notice that I am referring to justification, not salvation. Salvation is wholly and totally because of the grace of God. Period.
</font>[/QUOTE]We may be using different definitions of the term "justification." Salvation is wholly and totally because of the grace of God. Man does not cooperate in any way. However, after man has been saved by grace alone, he does cooperate in the works that follow. As James says in chapter 2, verse 18, "I show thee my faith by my works." </font>[/QUOTE]Faith does not justify us, Jesus' atonement Justifies us by paying the penalty for our sins so that sins are no longer held against us, thus we are justified.
John Gilmore, Your definition of Salvation is false. God provides his grace so that man can hear his Word and believe in HIS Son. "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." "Cometh" is a continuing process, "hearing" is a continuing process. And said another way, "Faith is what rises up in any man who hears and accepts the Word of God". Grace is the environment that God provides that enables ALL who will, to hear his word.
Grace is not a commodity that is transferrable from one being to another. It is a behavioral characteristic of the one possessing it. God gave every man the attribute of grace by which we are to live our lives as well. God behaves in accordance with His Grace toward man. We behave toward others in accordance with our grace toward others.
Salvation is what God alone does for every man WHO HAS FAITH in God gained by hearing the Word while God's grace prevails! Salvation occurs when man passes through death unto life. Death means the physical death that every man must experience. Those who have faith pass through this physical death and are saved INTO LIFE ETERNAL with Jesus. Those who DO NOT HAVE FAITH are judged and cast into the lake of fire.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
I can play that game too, Ray, but what you posted is not the truth.
If you will do a logic graph you will see that grace does in truth play a part, but faith is what saves man. Faith is the Condition in man that God looks for when separating the sheep from the Goats. Faith is what God looks for when separating believers who do not face judgment, from the unbelievers who are judged and cast into the lake of fire.
Grace is never mentioned anywhere in those Sanctification operations. The only thing that is mentioned is faith in God! Grace is the behavior that God shows toward his creation in this Natural life. There is no need for Grace in eternal life, for we shall see God as he is. There will be no reason for faith either for ALL knowledge is available to us in eternal life, and we will be living that for which we had hope!
Ray Berrian
New Member
Catholic Convert,
Ray is saying, 'And this Jesus did once . . . ' What part of this verse don't you understand?'
You said, 'and now you have the audacity to sit there and tell me that the Body and Blood are NOT a sacrifice?'
Ray is saying, 'And now you have the audacity to sit there and tell us that the Body and Blood of Christ is a sacrifice!'
Jesus crucifixion and sacrifice happened only once and just over 2,000 years ago. Hebrews 7:24-28 dismembers the skeletal theory that there is a re-sacrifice everytime the priests has a mass.
'Who needeth not DAILY, as those high priests,to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's; for this He did *ONCE*, when He offered up Himself.'
Exegesis: Jesus does not need to daily to offer up His sacrifice, because He never sinned. But He offered up His sacrifice 2,003 years ago for the sins of human beings. Christ did this only one time, when He gave up His life on the Cross of crucifixion.
Where did this hybrid view about a re-sacrifice in the mass come from?
Ray is saying, 'And this Jesus did once . . . ' What part of this verse don't you understand?'
You said, 'and now you have the audacity to sit there and tell me that the Body and Blood are NOT a sacrifice?'
Ray is saying, 'And now you have the audacity to sit there and tell us that the Body and Blood of Christ is a sacrifice!'
Jesus crucifixion and sacrifice happened only once and just over 2,000 years ago. Hebrews 7:24-28 dismembers the skeletal theory that there is a re-sacrifice everytime the priests has a mass.
'Who needeth not DAILY, as those high priests,to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's; for this He did *ONCE*, when He offered up Himself.'
Exegesis: Jesus does not need to daily to offer up His sacrifice, because He never sinned. But He offered up His sacrifice 2,003 years ago for the sins of human beings. Christ did this only one time, when He gave up His life on the Cross of crucifixion.
Where did this hybrid view about a re-sacrifice in the mass come from?
Ray Berrian
New Member
Yelsew,
I agree with you; I was backing you up.
'Originally posted by Ray Berrian: By Christ's grace . . . . through faith . . . '
[Ephesians 2:8]
You said, 'I can play that game too, Ray, but what you posted is not the truth. If you will do a logic graph you will see that grace does in truth play a part, but faith is what saves man. Faith is the Condition in man that God looks for when separating the sheep from the Goats. Faith is what God looks for when separating believers who do not face judgment, from the unbelievers who are judged and cast into the lake of fire.'
Again, salvation is all of grace, but we must respond in faith to receive His gift. [Ephesians 2:8-9] I think you might have misunderstood me.
I agree with you; I was backing you up.
'Originally posted by Ray Berrian: By Christ's grace . . . . through faith . . . '
[Ephesians 2:8]
You said, 'I can play that game too, Ray, but what you posted is not the truth. If you will do a logic graph you will see that grace does in truth play a part, but faith is what saves man. Faith is the Condition in man that God looks for when separating the sheep from the Goats. Faith is what God looks for when separating believers who do not face judgment, from the unbelievers who are judged and cast into the lake of fire.'
Again, salvation is all of grace, but we must respond in faith to receive His gift. [Ephesians 2:8-9] I think you might have misunderstood me.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Salvation is not of grace! Salvation is of FAITH! It is God's Grace that enables man to have faith whereby man is saved. Grace is an enabler not the actor in man's salvation.
thessalonian
New Member
John Gilmore,
Why, in the 273 times the NT mentions faith, does it never put it with the word alone. Oh wait. It does once. James 2:24. But that won't help you much.
Why, in the 273 times the NT mentions faith, does it never put it with the word alone. Oh wait. It does once. James 2:24. But that won't help you much.
John Gilmore
New Member
Yes, I suppose it is possible to prove any false doctrine by isolating a single verse, ignoring the context of the verse, and teaching contrary to what is clearly taught throughout scripture.
In context, James is teaching justification by faith alone. But it is a justification that must produce the fruits of faith, "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds. Can such faith save him? ...Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.... Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Thessalonian, your observation is clever, but not very convincing. You can do the same thing with "Grace". Grace is not accompanied with the word "alone" either. In fact, we don't find the phrase "grace alone" anywhere in scripture. So the argument is moot.
Faith is the only thing that God looks for in man by which God saves man. He completely ignores our works as one ignores "filthy rags". God does not save unbelievers (those lacking faith), nor does God cause man to believe. God makes himself the object of belief but does not cause any man to believe in him. Everything that can persuade man to believe, and thereby have faith is provided in God's word, therefore every man that hears the word must make a choice, believe or not believe.
It is faith and nothing else that God looks for in man. Therefore it is faith alone that saves.
thessalonian
New Member
Thessalonian, your observation is clever, but not very convincing. You can do the same thing with "Grace". Grace is not accompanied with the word "alone" either. In fact, we don't find the phrase "grace alone" anywhere in scripture. So the argument is moot.
Faith is the only thing that God looks for in man by which God saves man. He completely ignores our works as one ignores "filthy rags". God does not save unbelievers (those lacking faith), nor does God cause man to believe. God makes himself the object of belief but does not cause any man to believe in him. Everything that can persuade man to believe, and thereby have faith is provided in God's word, therefore every man that hears the word must make a choice, believe or not believe.
It is faith and nothing else that God looks for in man. Therefore it is faith alone that saves. </font>[/QUOTE]It never ceases to amaze me the Protestant mentality that does not allow them to acknowledge what God does in an through them. Worse they insult God's grace at work in their lives.
Ephesians 3:20
Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or
think, according to the power that works within us,
Matthew 13:23
"And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who
hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth,
some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
All is grace. No man comes to the father except through me Jesus says. Grace. We cannot have faith except it be a gift from God. Grace. We can do no good unless it is God working in us. Grace. We cannot have true faith, hope, and love except it be given by God. Grace. We cannot know right from wrong except that God plants these things in our heart. (Romans 2:15) grace. Grace through faith. Not faith alone.
The man cannot believe on his own. Peter had to have his understanding of Christ as the Messiah revealed to him. Grace.
Acts 15:11
"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
There is no such verse saying we are saved by faith that I know of. We cannot come to faith without grace. To say otherwise is pelagian at it's core. Man's part in his own salvation is given to him by God. He cooperates in it by the grace given him.
Blessings
Thess.
thessalonian
New Member
Yes, I suppose it is possible to prove any false doctrine by isolating a single verse, ignoring the context of the verse, and teaching contrary to what is clearly taught throughout scripture.
In context, James is teaching justification by faith alone. But it is a justification that must produce the fruits of faith, "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds. Can such faith save him? ...Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.... Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." </font>[/QUOTE]I guess that's why Martin Luther called James an Epistle of Straw. See my post to Yelsew.
Blessings
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Thessalonian, of the 340 instances of the term "faith" that appear in the Holy Scriptures, at least 75% of them are by actual words or by inferrence "your faith", "the faith of the individual", or "by faith...someone did something". Each of the instances speaking of something that the person possesses.
Many of the rest of the instances speak of the collective faith known today as Christianity.
Most do not indicate that faith is something that is given to man by God but rather something that man has in God!
If you do the same with "Grace" you'll find that there are a variety of "graces" but not one that says grace alone is what saves.
So I stand by the evidence in scripture that says that faith is the single element in man that God used to save man.
Many of the rest of the instances speak of the collective faith known today as Christianity.
Most do not indicate that faith is something that is given to man by God but rather something that man has in God!
If you do the same with "Grace" you'll find that there are a variety of "graces" but not one that says grace alone is what saves.
So I stand by the evidence in scripture that says that faith is the single element in man that God used to save man.
neal4christ
New Member
This sounds heretical to me.
Tell me, if you had all the faith alone in the world, would that save you in and of itself (apart from God's grace)?
In Christ,
Neal
CatholicConvert
New Member
John, that is simply not true. As I posted in the very first post in this thread, grace is not obtainable by any amount of works. Go back and read what I posted again. The entire and proper understanding of the Catholic Faith, both in Eastern Orthodoxy and Western Romanism is that grace is first, last, and everything in between for the believer. Why do you not accept this?
What is it about doing works which scares the bejeebers out of you? Are you afraid that somehow God will git angry with you if you insist that a man must actually live out the covenant which he entered into by his baptism?
Salvation is becoming like Christ. HOW -- John --does one become like Christ if one does not do the works which Christ did -- works of charity and faith in God. The only work we cannot do is to climb up on that Cross and die for our own sins. No Catholic worth his salt would think that we could do what Jesus did in dying for the sins of the world as well as our personal sins. But just because Jesus died for my sins does not mean that I can ignore that sacrifice when I have sinned and refuse to apply it to my soul.
Reading Luther's works is to read someone who, despite being raised Catholic, did not understand much at all about the Faith. Of course, we see a lot of those kind of people around....