By grace and grace alone

[CatholicConvert]

'Who needeth not DAILY, as those high priests,to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's; for this He did *ONCE*, when He offered up Himself.'

Exegesis: Jesus does not need to daily to offer up His sacrifice, because He never sinned. But He offered up His sacrifice 2,003 years ago for the sins of human beings. Christ did this only one time, when He gave up His life on the Cross of crucifixion.

Once again, Ray, you ignore the rest of the context. It says that Jesus is our HIGH PRIEST --
and as I have told you about a 100 times before, that means that Jesus offers that same sacrifice which is particular to the high priesthood --YOM KIPPUR.

YOM KIPPUR is a corporate offering for the nation and for the people of God as a covenant entity. It is not offered for individuals.

When it is talking about the end of the sacrifice, it is talking about YOM KIPPUR here on earth because Jesus is offering it eternally in Heaven in the tabernacle not made by hands, but by God Himself. That is far, far different from the issue of my sins. When I sin, I still need a blood covering for my sins. And Luther's screwy idea of Christ's righteousness covering us like snow covering dung is simply not biblical, hence the need for an ongoing sacrificial Lamb Whose Flesh I can eat and Blood I can drink for the remission of my personal and particular sins

Like I said...write to Myerstown and git yerself a refund. You really got taken by that bunch of folk!!

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Salvation is not of grace! Salvation is of FAITH!

This sounds heretical to me.

Tell me, if you had all the faith alone in the world, would that save you in and of itself (apart from God's grace)?

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]I ask you, have I ever said anything about faith being apart from God's Grace?
No, I have not. What I have and continue to say is that it is FAITH that God looks at when his is "giving" Salvation to man. Does God save those who lack FAITH? Can you give me the name of one person who does not have faith that God has already saved?

Every human who has ever lived, is living, or will live this natural life does so under God's Grace. Therefore, if GRACE saves, Every human who ever lived, is living, or will live is saved. Is that what scriptures say?

If my faith has as its object, Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah. Then I am saved. If my faith has as it's object Elvis Pressley, then I am not saved.

If God was behaving according to his justice rather than his Grace, NOT ONE HUMAN would be saved for All have sinned and the wage for sin is death. First sin committed = death.

So What is it that saves? GOD SAVES THOSE WHO HAVE FAITH, and no others!

 

[gb93433]

Faith always produces some kind of work. If faith in Chrst then there are present works in accordance with Christ. Even the thief on the cross had works. His faith was recorded. He showed his faith in the dialog with Jesus and confessed Christ.

Hebrews 11:6, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

A.T. Roberson writes about Eph. 2:8,9, '"Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours.'

 

[Ray Berrian]

Catholic Convert,

The whole point of the sacrifice of Christ is that it was and remains a one time act accomplished on our behalf. [Hebrews 7:27] Now that His sacrifice has been offered before the Godhead, the intercession of Jesus is what brings us safe at last to His Heaven. [Hebrews 7:25]

 

[Yelsew]

CatholicConvert, I recognize this was written to John, but it is so grossly incorrect that I am compelled to respond to it also.

John, that is simply not true. As I posted in the very first post in this thread, grace is not obtainable by any amount of works. Go back and read what I posted again. The entire and proper understanding of the Catholic Faith, both in Eastern Orthodoxy and Western Romanism is that grace is first, last, and everything in between for the believer. Why do you not accept this?

One does not have to be a believer for God to cover him with His GRACE. Every human who ever lived, is living, or will live, does so while God's grace prevails. ALL are covered by God's Grace. God's grace is an attribute of God that according to God's will constrains God's behavior toward mankind. GRACE is not a commodity that God passes out like candy, or selectively gives to individuals.

What is it about doing works which scares the bejeebers out of you? Are you afraid that somehow God will git angry with you if you insist that a man must actually live out the covenant which he entered into by his baptism?

That presumes that baptism does what you say it does. I don't find that happening in scripture.

Salvation is becoming like Christ. HOW -- John --does one become like Christ if one does not do the works which Christ did -- works of charity and faith in God....

Salvation is receiving Eternal life through FAITH in God! FAITH IS NOT A WORK that man can do! The Work of the Father is that you have faith in his son. It is the father's work that we have faith, that is, the father did all the work so that we can have faith.

...The only work we cannot do is to climb up on that Cross and die for our own sins. No Catholic worth his salt would think that we could do what Jesus did in dying for the sins of the world as well as our personal sins. But just because Jesus died for my sins does not mean that I can ignore that sacrifice when I have sinned and refuse to apply it to my soul.

Jesus death on the cross is for the atonement of ALL sin. There is no need to die in one's sins.

 

[neal4christ]

So What is it that saves?

Grace.

God mediates salvation through faith, but it is because of his grace that we are saved. I understand we have to have faith. Go back, look at my posts. But that faith does not do the actual saving of us. It is wholly and totally by God's grace. You don't realize that when you are saying faith alone that that excludes all others: grace, works, etc. It is not faith alone, because it all starts with God's grace mediated through faith which will work itself out in good works. You take any part away and it will not work. They are all necessary. But the whole thing is possible because of God's grace. If he wanted, he could save anyone he wanted to whether they had faith or not. But that is not the way he chose to mediate his grace to us. Grace is unmerited and undeserved. Without it, your faith would mean absolutely nothing. Zip. Zilch.

And please, tell me, where did you get your definition of grace? You did not address my first request as far as I know.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Yelsew,

Salvation is not of grace! Salvation is of FAITH!

Thou doth protest too much.

Really, I'm convinced that Protestantism has come full circle and run headlong into Pelagianism for many individuals. Consistently, I have seen this theme of "faith is from me while all the rest is from God" in various Protestants while the faithful Catholic says, "No, your faith is not from you; it is a gift completely unmerited by you, which was given to you by God due to his free choice without any consideration on your part."

"After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone ... In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself" (St. Therese of Lisieux).

The above is quoted in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 2011.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> So What is it that saves?

Grace.

God mediates salvation through faith, but it is because of his grace that we are saved. I understand we have to have faith. Go back, look at my posts. But that faith does not do the actual saving of us. It is wholly and totally by God's grace. You don't realize that when you are saying faith alone that that excludes all others: grace, works, etc. It is not faith alone, because it all starts with God's grace mediated through faith which will work itself out in good works. You take any part away and it will not work. They are all necessary. But the whole thing is possible because of God's grace. If he wanted, he could save anyone he wanted to whether they had faith or not. But that is not the way he chose to mediate his grace to us. Grace is unmerited and undeserved. Without it, your faith would mean absolutely nothing. Zip. Zilch.

And please, tell me, where did you get your definition of grace? You did not address my first request as far as I know.

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Grace,

Random House Websters Dictionary defines Grace thusly:
Grace (Theol.) the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God.

For God so loved the World that He Gave his only begotten Son,(Grace) so that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life (Salvation). Now that is grace. God included all mankind in his Grace, Gave his son so that whosoever out of all who believes has everlasting life. So out of the words of God the Son we learn that believing is what brings everlasting life (Salvation). Notice that Jesus did not say out of my grace you have everlasting life. No it is because we believe that we have everlasting life.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Yelsew,

Salvation is not of grace! Salvation is of FAITH!

Thou doth protest too much.

Really, I'm convinced that Protestantism has come full circle and run headlong into Pelagianism for many individuals. Consistently, I have seen this theme of "faith is from me while all the rest is from God" in various Protestants while the faithful Catholic says, "No, your faith is not from you; it is a gift completely unmerited by you, which was given to you by God due to his free choice without any consideration on your part."

"After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone ... In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself" (St. Therese of Lisieux).

The above is quoted in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 2011.

Hi Carson,
Is St. Therese of Lisieux's thought suppose to persuade me that what I believe is nothing more than egotistical ramblings? I'm not persuaded.

If you want to persuade me, you are going to have to present stronger evidence that may persuade me. Your pigeon holing me into an "ism" is of no value or consequence to me. Only you receive any satisfaction by doing so. Enjoy your moment of "self imposed importance". That's all you'll get!

 

[Sularis]

Lets restate logic

Salvation available to us because of God's grace
but Faith saves
but faith without works is dead
and our salvation is not based on our works

thus what work or circumstance births our faith?

we must therefore go back to the initial circumstance by which we gain salvation that is grace - did something come before grace?

Well... yes the Law - but the Law brings death and damnation to those who sin so how can we as sinners be saved?

obviously grace and faith which was stated previously

so what surpassed the Law - grace

So something happens between the Law and the offering of grace unto us. What caused grace to be extended to us?

I can think of no act upon our part that would cause grace to be extended - lest it become not grace - not even faith - which is and is not a work

Im going to have the temerity to skip a few steps in order to simply suggest that the death and resurection of Jesus is what causes the grace to be extended to us.


now the work of Jesus makes salvation accessible - ie Jesus has done the work - and when we hear of it - I suggest that that work of Christ stirs to life in the burnt ashes of our souls a few embers have the potentiality in all people to light the fire of faith which thereby the work/grace is accepted and salvation is bestowed upon us

so in simple terms the grace is that the work of Jesus is counted for us - His righteouness covers us, His blood covers our sins.

Faith - Works = Damnation
Faith = Damnation
Works = Damnation
Grace (unless yer Calvinist) = damnation
Faith + Grace = Salvation
Grace = Works of God

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Sularis:
Lets restate logic

Salvation available to us because of God's grace
but Faith saves
but faith without works is dead
and our salvation is not based on our works

thus what work or circumstance births our faith?

we must therefore go back to the initial circumstance by which we gain salvation that is grace - did something come before grace?

Well... yes the Law - but the Law brings death and damnation to those who sin so how can we as sinners be saved?

obviously grace and faith which was stated previously

so what surpassed the Law - grace

So something happens between the Law and the offering of grace unto us. What caused grace to be extended to us?

I can think of no act upon our part that would cause grace to be extended - lest it become not grace - not even faith - which is and is not a work

Im going to have the temerity to skip a few steps in order to simply suggest that the death and resurection of Jesus is what causes the grace to be extended to us.


now the work of Jesus makes salvation accessible - ie Jesus has done the work - and when we hear of it - I suggest that that work of Christ stirs to life in the burnt ashes of our souls a few embers have the potentiality in all people to light the fire of faith which thereby the work/grace is accepted and salvation is bestowed upon us

so in simple terms the grace is that the work of Jesus is counted for us - His righteouness covers us, His blood covers our sins.

Faith - Works = Damnation
Faith = Damnation
Works = Damnation
Grace (unless yer Calvinist) = damnation
Faith + Grace = Salvation
Grace = Works of God

You can keep it, it don't float!

 

[thessalonian]

"Most do not indicate that faith is something that is given to man by God but rather something that man has in God!

If you do the same with "Grace" you'll find that there are a variety of "graces" but not one that says grace alone is what saves.

So I stand by the evidence in scripture that says that faith is the single element in man that God used to save man. "

Pelgianism at it's finest. Man saves himself, i.e. comes to God on his own. God then gives him a head nod and some grace. But it is not that grace that saves him. It is his faith which is within him. God does not motivate it according to Yelsew. So man can in fact claim his salvation is what I say according to Yelsew's logic. No, Peter recieved the revelatoin that Christ was the Messiah from the Father. That revelation is what his faith was based upon. He came to nothing by himself but by grace. Yelsew is denying that it is the Cross that saves here for the man is already saved according to him when he makes his act of faith.

Blessings

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
"Most do not indicate that faith is something that is given to man by God but rather something that man has in God!

If you do the same with "Grace" you'll find that there are a variety of "graces" but not one that says grace alone is what saves.

So I stand by the evidence in scripture that says that faith is the single element in man that God used to save man. "

Pelgianism at it's finest. Man saves himself, i.e. comes to God on his own. God then gives him a head nod and some grace. But it is not that grace that saves him. It is his faith which is within him. God does not motivate it according to Yelsew. So man can in fact claim his salvation is what I say according to Yelsew's logic. No, Peter recieved the revelatoin that Christ was the Messiah from the Father. That revelation is what his faith was based upon. He came to nothing by himself but by grace. Yelsew is denying that it is the Cross that saves here for the man is already saved according to him when he makes his act of faith.

Blessings

Don't be stupid Thessalonian. Coming to God is not faith! Faith is the result of Coming to God. Faith is what one has when one has become persuaded.

Your post indicates that you are a petty bureaucrat, only satisfied when you can pigeonhole others into trite little "isms". There is but one division that matters, believer vs unbeliever. Let's stick with that.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by thessalonian:
"Most do not indicate that faith is something that is given to man by God but rather something that man has in God!

If you do the same with "Grace" you'll find that there are a variety of "graces" but not one that says grace alone is what saves.

So I stand by the evidence in scripture that says that faith is the single element in man that God used to save man. "

Pelgianism at it's finest. Man saves himself, i.e. comes to God on his own. God then gives him a head nod and some grace. But it is not that grace that saves him. It is his faith which is within him. God does not motivate it according to Yelsew. So man can in fact claim his salvation is what I say according to Yelsew's logic. No, Peter recieved the revelatoin that Christ was the Messiah from the Father. That revelation is what his faith was based upon. He came to nothing by himself but by grace. Yelsew is denying that it is the Cross that saves here for the man is already saved according to him when he makes his act of faith.

Blessings

Don't be stupid Thessalonian. Coming to God is not faith! Faith is the result of Coming to God. Faith is what one has when one has become persuaded.

Your post indicates that you are a petty bureaucrat, only satisfied when you can pigeonhole others into trite little "isms". There is but one division that matters, believer vs unbeliever. Let's stick with that. </font>[/QUOTE]You create dichotomies where there are none. Let's stick with that.

 

[Yelsew]

For each individual there is but one of two conditions possible....believer or unbeliever. No other options are given in scripture.

 

[thessalonian]

Diane,

Yesterday in our local paper I read an editorial in which a woman used the very same logic "Dad can't afford another" to justify late term abortion, saying that she was concerned about the "quality of life" of the children being born. Once again as Christians we must put our faith in God that he will provide. He has the hairs on our head numbered. Even single, pregnant women must remember this. This is where our hope lies. Not man made devices to keep children from being born. It is the father of all lies who is at the root of this mentality.

Blessings

 

[Me2]

Faith comes from the one who holds it.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

the hope of the evidence not seen. the substance that exists in an unseen realm not yet seen.

before jesus. it was our own faith as we were ruled by our carnal spirit. "it" could not see or hear anything of God. its faith was "dead"

after Jesus. His spirit "within" us sees and hears the things of God. the unseen evidence before it becomes seen. it is the faith that comes with our new spirit that brings this capability of having living hope in our being that is based on the ability of acknowledging the existence in an unseen realm of unseen evidence.

it is the spirit within us that knows of the evidence not seen yet.

it is the spirit of Jesus that has seen the plans of our lives before the foundation of the world.

it is the spirit that acknowledges the existence of this unseen evidence. these unseen plans as it holds the faith that is based on seeing this evidence and this truth gives us living hope to wait for its appearance.

what is being denied is the existence of this spirit within us that acknowledges this unseen evidence. the spirit of Christ "within us"

heres a clue

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


we are baptised into the spiritual family of God. whether we understand this or not. this is a fact. we now have a new spirit.
here in mark, the statement is concerning one who does not "believe" or acknowledge the reason or understanding of this baptism, or the impartation of this new spirit. it is their comprehension that is damned..
or we can say "highly confused". or doubtful. for now they will live by their own self will and not by the indwelling spirit of Jesus within them.
by the faith of the spirit of Jesus Christ.

they will be their own lord until they abdicate rulership of their will. listen as you hear..
"MY faith"

 

[thessalonian]

Larae,

I wonder how they can justify any support for a ban on cloning by scripture? I can think of a few verses but they are not nearly as clear as the ones I have uses for ABC. Diane wouldn't buy them for sure. There is a religious group who wants to clone Jesus Christ. They actually want to get DNA from the shroud of Turin or one of many other the relics that exist. There are thrones from the crown and pieces of the cross that are authenticated. I am quite sure they could get his dna from one of these. Perhaps they have it worked out that this is how they can bring about the second coming.

Blessings

 

[Sularis]

Yelsew - you just cant say it doesnt float without saying why or why not - especially since I appear to be making a different statement then most people in the thread

Lest I could simply state you are - sorry was about to go into flame mode - simply put I could say you are ignorant of the Bible obviously never having read the Book

faith alone saves - but faith without works is dead - thus grace applies the work of Christ to us, which births the ability for faith and choice.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
Larae,

I wonder how they can justify any support for a ban on cloning by scripture? I can think of a few verses but they are not nearly as clear as the ones I have uses for ABC. Diane wouldn't buy them for sure. There is a religious group who wants to clone Jesus Christ. They actually want to get DNA from the shroud of Turin or one of many other the relics that exist. There are thrones from the crown and pieces of the cross that are authenticated. I am quite sure they could get his dna from one of these. Perhaps they have it worked out that this is how they can bring about the second coming.

Blessings

This somehow got on the wrong thread. Should be on the ABC thread.