C.H. Spurgeon, A defense of Calvinism.

[Dale-c]

Spurgeon wrote and preached so prolifically that I have only read a small portion of his "output". I would be grateful if you could provide one or two instances where he says he believes that the LORD wants each and every person who has ever lived or will ever live to be saved. I know he was zealous for preaching the gospel to all, but that is not the same thing.

David, if you read the article that I posted you will find confirmation to what you have stated.
He absolutely did NOT believe that Christ atoned for anyone who would not be saved.

 

[David Lamb]

David, if you read the article that I posted you will find confirmation to what you have stated.
He absolutely did NOT believe that Christ atoned for anyone who would not be saved.

That is what I thought, Dale. However, in his reply, Allan quoted part of Spurgeon's sermon, "Salvation by Knowing the Truth" which seemed to suggest otherwise. (Thank you for that, Allan)

But I have just looked up that sermon online at http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1516.htm and discovered that before the section Allan quoted, Spurgeon had already said:

It is quite certain that when we read that God will have all men to be saved it does not mean that he wills it with the force of a decree or a divine purpose, for, if he did, then all men would be saved. He willed to make the world, and the world was made: he does not so will the salvation of all men, for we know that all men will not be saved. Terrible as the truth is, yet is it certain from holy writ that there are men who, in consequence of their sin and their rejection of the Savior, will go away into everlasting punishment, where shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. There will at the last be goats upon the left hand as well as sheep on the right, tares to be burned as well as wheat to be garnered, chaff to be blown away as well as corn to be preserved. There will be a dreadful hell as well as a glorious heaven, and there is no decree to the contrary.​

And just following the paragraph Allan quoted, Spurgeon went on to say:

Does not the text mean that it is the wish of God that men should be saved? The word "wish" gives as much force to the original as it really requires, and the passage should run thus—"whose wish it is that all men should be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth." As it is my wish that it should be so, as it is your wish that it might be so, so it is God's wish that all men should be saved; for, assuredly, he is not less benevolent than we are. Then comes the question, "But if he wishes it to be so, why does he not make it so? " Beloved friend, have you never heard that a fool may ask a question which a wise man cannot answer, and, if that be so, I am sure a wise person, like yourself, can ask me a great many questions which, fool as I am, I am yet not foolish enough to try to answer. Your question is only one form of the great debate of all the ages,—"If God be infinitely good and powerful, why does not his power carry out to the full all his beneficence?" It is God's wish that the oppressed should go free, yet there are many oppressed who are not free. It is God's wish that the sick should not suffer. Do you doubt it? Is it not your own wish? And yet the Lord does not work a miracle to heal every sick person. It is God's wish that his creatures should be happy. Do you deny that? He does not interpose by any miraculous agency to make us all happy, and yet it would be wicked to suppose that he does not wish the happiness of all the creatures that he has made. He has an infinite benevolence which, nevertheless, is not in all points worked out by his infinite omnipotence; and if anybody asked me why it is not, I cannot tell. I have never set up to be an explainer of all difficulties, and I have no desire to do so.​

 

[psalms109:31]

So if the LORD wants all ( in your definition each and every person , past present and future ) to be saved --- what a failure He is !

Go with the God of Scripture who has marked-out His elect ones before the world was created .

Christ is the one who is spoken of in Isaiah 53 . In the 11th verse it says : "After the suffering of his soul , he will see the light of life and be satisfied ..." ( NIV ) He accomplished what He set out to do on the cross . His work was done when He said : "It is finished" . He died for only those that He laid His life down for . He atoned for them and them alone . There was no hypothetical atonement . A number of things are missing in your understanding of the atonement . But in particular is the determination of the Lord . He set out with a definite plan . There was nothing fuzzy about what He set out to do . He does no waiting upon the will of feeble mortals .

He will justify many (v.11) . He bore the sin of many . Is "many" all ( as in each and every) ? Or is the word many --representative of a large number , but not inclusive of every member of the human race ?

God has not failed at all because He wants all men to be saved or you call God a liar if you do not believe, but as His word says' He is going to only save whosoever believes and He will not fail, they will be saved.

 

[webdog]

I appolgize, but I must log off. I have been up for 43 hours and my thoughts running together, and much of the time I think I am typeing, I wake up. :laugh:

You and your wife really need to stop trying to greak the world record for the longest kiss

 

[Allan]

David, if you read the article that I posted you will find confirmation to what you have stated.
He absolutely did NOT believe that Christ atoned for anyone who would not be saved.

HE also did not disagree with scripture when it stated that "God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" means exactly THAT - all being EVERY man.

You can read all AROUND his works but that does not flutter away the fact that Spurgeon did not go beyond scripture to make his theology more sound. Re-read what I posted or better go back and re-read what he wrote.

Yes, Spurgeon believed that Jesus died for the elect but he also could not dismiss the scriptures like the one in question.

Spurgeon believed in the absolute soveriegnty of God that He determines but at the same time he also did not dismiss the scriptural passages that show man was responsible acting of his own accord (regarding the Arminian position). He states in the latter portion of the sermon - A Defence of Calvinism - :

...I do not think I differ from any of my Hyper-Calvinistic brethren in what I do believe, but I differ from them in what they do not believe. I do not hold any less than they do, but I hold a little more, and, I think, a little more of the truth revealed in the Scriptures. Not only are there a few cardinal doctrines, by which we can steer our ship North, South, East, or West, but as we study the Word, we shall begin to learn something about the North-west and North-east, and all else that lies between the four cardinal points. The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.

 

[Rippon]

The biblical fact that people are accountable to God for their sin is not an Arminian tenent , as if Calvinists have not historically held to the same . People are responsible . There is no tension on this as some would allege . It's another false antithesis .

 

[npetreley]

The biblical fact that people are accountable to God for their sin is not an Arminian tenent , as if Calvinists have not historically held to the same . People are responsible . There is no tension on this as some would allege . It's another false antithesis .

Actually, at least some of the semi-pelagians on the board seem to think man is not accountable for any sins he does not knowingly commit, which is the basis for the "age of accountability". So if any comparison is to be made, Calvinists are the ones who have more accountability in their doctrine.

 

[psalms109:31]

We all are accountible

We all are accountible for our sins and in need of an mediator a advocate someone to stand between us and God. If we stood before Him by ourselves we would be condemned.

Job 9:
29 Since I am already found guilty,
why should I struggle in vain?

30 Even if I washed myself with soap
and my hands with washing soda,

31 you would plunge me into a slime pit
so that even my clothes would detest me.

32 "He is not a man like me that I might answer him,
that we might confront each other in court.

33 If only there were someone to arbitrate between us,
to lay his hand upon us both,

34 someone to remove God's rod from me,
so that his terror would frighten me no more.

35 Then I would speak up without fear of him,
but as it now stands with me, I cannot.


Job 16:
18 "O earth, do not cover my blood;
may my cry never be laid to rest!

19 Even now my witness is in heaven;
my advocate is on high.

20 My intercessor is my friend
as my eyes pour out tears to God;

21 on behalf of a man he pleads with God
as a man pleads for his friend.

1 Timothy 2
Instructions on Worship
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

 

[Rippon]

PS , ( it sometimes feels as if I am writing you a postscript ) : God has not failed . Only the god of those who think that he is not able to do what he wants . God's will is never thwarted . On the contrary , He frustrates the plans of many .

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

We are to depend on the Lord and not our own understanding.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth if you do not want to believe Him or Not.

 

[Rippon]

Again , if He "wants" He failed , for obviously many have not , are not and shall not be saved . But , since you understand 1 Timothy 2:4,6 as meaning each and every person blah , blah , blah -- you are stuck with a conundrum . You just can't fathom the possibility that the said verses refer to the fact that the LORd had no regard for national distinctions . All classes of people are in view here . Not all people without exception .

The LORD has , with His blood, purchased folks for God from every tribe , and language and people and nation .( See Rev.5:9 ,7:9 ) . Jesus died for the scattered children of God ( John 11:52 ) . The LORD knows those who are His ( 2 Tim.2:19 ) and that is not everyone . Only to those who are called has He died as a ransom ( Heb. 9:15 and Ro.8:28-30 ) . Not everyone , but for those who will inherit salvation has He died . We as believers are the ones who are the heirs of what was promised .

Many Christians of a non-Calvinistic understanding think 2 Peter 3:9 means all without exception -- but that turns into nonsense upon examination . The LORD is not willing for who not to perish ? Right , His elect ones . Afterall , as the KJV has it -- "to usward" -- the elect , chosen ones ( 1 Peter 1:1,2 ) .

The book of 1 John was addressed to believers . I like the 3:16 there . "Jesus Christ laid down his life for us " . The "us" are believers . We are the sheep he died for for , in the stead of , on behalf of , substitutionally .

Titus 2:13c-14 : ...our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ , who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own ... ( NIV )

 

[Humblesmith]

Quite an observation. I have seen that myself and it makes it really hard to have a good discussion when you are constantly being told you believe that which you do not believe.

Unfortunately, this is true from most all sides of this issue.

As for CHS, he did indeed believe Calvinism. But he also preached Whosever will, and a strong Whosoever will at that. Around here nowdays, the stringent Calvinists will give a nod to preaching the way CHS did, but very quickly follow up with the qualifications that whosoever won't, and whosoever can't. This was done in this very thread, and was not the tone of Spurgeon in his sermons. Even as a Calvinist, Spurgeon at times preached an invitation so strongly that he was even accused of preaching against what he believed. That is why he was successful, and saved a dying church from his predesessor, who preached closer to what is being preached today.

I'll take the preaching of CHS any day, for if you read his entire sermons, not the isolated quotes presented here to support Calvinism, you get a much more balanced view of scripture and the man CHS. The reason his beliefs are sometimes questioned is due to the way he preached.

While I'm sure there are some modern 5-pointers who preach the gospel, my personal experience has been that they're hard to find. I've found many, many more modern sermons by Calvinists who preach the comfort of determinism.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

Again , if He "wants" He failed , for obviously many have not , are not and shall not be saved . But , since you understand 1 Timothy 2:4,6 as meaning each and every person blah , blah , blah -- you are stuck with a conundrum . You just can't fathom the possibility that the said verses refer to the fact that the LORd had no regard for national distinctions . All classes of people are in view here . Not all people without exception .

The LORD has , with His blood, purchased folks for God from every tribe , and language and people and nation .( See Rev.5:9 ,7:9 ) . Jesus died for the scattered children of God ( John 11:52 ) . The LORD knows those who are His ( 2 Tim.2:19 ) and that is not everyone . Only to those who are called has He died as a ransom ( Heb. 9:15 and Ro.8:28-30 ) . Not everyone , but for those who will inherit salvation has He died . We as believers are the ones who are the heirs of what was promised .

Many Christians of a non-Calvinistic understanding think 2 Peter 3:9 means all without exception -- but that turns into nonsense upon examination . The LORD is not willing for who not to perish ? Right , His elect ones . Afterall , as the KJV has it -- "to usward" -- the elect , chosen ones ( 1 Peter 1:1,2 ) .

The book of 1 John was addressed to believers . I like the 3:16 there . "Jesus Christ laid down his life for us " . The "us" are believers . We are the sheep he died for for , in the stead of , on behalf of , substitutionally .

Titus 2:13c-14 : ...our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ , who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own ... ( NIV )

You are using human reasoning instead of agreeing with the scripture. God said He wants all men to be save, he didn't say they were going to be saved only in your own human reasoning that you think with your own understanding that He failed. You will make some believe not those who have faith in the word of God.

If whosoever believes doesn't get saved then He has failed. God promises that will never hapen.

Those who put thier trust in the name of the Lord will not be disappointed.

God is no liar or am I or Paul. Just believe the word of God.

You will not be blessed or praised by man by believing the word of God.

1 Timothy 2
Instructions on Worship
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

 

[psalms109:31]

Election process

This scripture shows how this happens

Spend some time in studing scripture instead of mens understanding of them.

Romans 11:
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

It is the tree that was chosen before even the foundation of the world and we are apart of it.

The jews are the natural branches. Gentiles through a wild olive shoot. The Jews is the one's who are the natural branches there before even the beginning. God cut those out for unbelief and God replaced them with whosever believes from a wild olive shoot. So we as Gentiles are included with the believing Jews. These two groups make one tree. We are apart of the same tree that was there before even the world began.

 

[J.D.]

That is why he was successful, and saved a dying church from his predesessor,

1. What does successful mean?

2. How do we know that the church was "dying"?

3. Who was his predecessor?

4. Would Spurgeon claimed to have "saved" anyone?

 

[David Lamb]

If whosoever believes doesn't get saved then He has failed. God promises that will never hapen.

Those who put thier trust in the name of the Lord will not be disappointed.

God is no liar or am I or Paul. Just believe the word of God.

You will not be blessed or praised by man by believing the word of God.

So where is the problem? Calvinists also believe:

1. that if someone were to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ yet was not saved, God would have failed.

2. that God promises that (1) will not happen.

3. that those who put their trust in the name of the Lord will not be disappointed.

4. that neither God nor Paul are liars, and those Calvinists who know you would I am sure agree that you yourself are not a liar.

5. that we must believe the Word of God.

6. that a person will not be blessed or praised by man for believing the word of God.​

 

[psalms109:31]

Truth

The world need the truth not the way it use to be but the truth to today.

That God loved the world (everyone) that He sent His Son that whosoever( anybody) believes shall not perish but have eternal life.

We are included with the believing Jews when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, so we must go out with the words of Jesus.

God wanting no one to perish is a calling for us to go out, with the truth and His love for the world.

2 Corinthians 5:
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Hebrews 7:
18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth there is no limitation there, but God is only going to save believers in His Son

 

[Dale-c]

That is why he was successful, and saved a dying church from his predesessor, who preached closer to what is being preached today.

No, the reason that he was successful was that God blessed him.
Many have preached with the truth with much less "success"

THough I would argue that true success is obedience, not the results.