C.S. Lewis: "If nothing remains...

[psalms109:31]

LK 10:22 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."


john.

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[skypair]

The Bible reveals to us how God saves. He works out his sovereign grace through the preaching of the gospel so that the elect will be saved through belief.

We would know none of that without the Scripture.

How does that work, Larry -- the "elect saved through belief" part? Are they saved on account of they are "elect" or on account of their belief?

It sounds like this to me -- God promises the "elect" that they are saved by believing Christ's teachings. Is that "progressive salvation?" Or instantaneously at some point in time? "Through belief" I'm trying to put my brain around that infinitive phrase.

They're really saved through election, aren't they? Cause it sounds like God makes the "elect" believe and "belief" as you use it is just a "phase" they have to go through after salvation is already assured.

Can you please clarify. I'm not trying to be obdurate but the salvation part still sounds unconditional so that the "belief" is a consequence of being chosen -- so how could belief have anything to do with the salvation part?

skypair

 

[skypair]

great point

I know -- I was trying to ignore it :laugh:

sky

 

[russell55]

Do you deny that salvation is on account of "election?" God having chosen that person?

Yes, I deny that salvation is on account of election. Salvation is on account of Christ's work. Solus Christus.

What other "necessary things?"

Like Christ's work. Like regeneration, faith and belief, justification, adoption, sanctification, glorification.

See, I agree with this but why is the "supernatural" work done in the first place, Russ? Because that person was chosen/"elected" in eternity past, right?

Yes

Unless you are departing from the foundational theme of Calvinism, they were NOT chosen because God foreknew that they would believe. Is there anything miraculous about God choosing you to give all these supernatural advantages to??

It's supernatural by definition, because it's something God does.

Here's my question to you: If people are saved because God foresees that they will believe, how is that any more miraculous than people being saved because God chooses them? In fact, isn't God personally active in salvation because of foresight than he is in salvation because of election.

ALL the miraculous part, you see, comes AFTER the choosing to salvation.

Depending, I suppose, on how you define miraculous, but since you admit that everything after the choosing is miraculous, that means your original argument—that in Calvinism, salvation is a natural concept—is completely bunk.

 

[skypair]

Larry,

Here's what it -- "elect saved through belief" -- sounds like to me: that you don't believe in order to be saved but because you believe you are saved.

I just got off-line trying to understand it and that's what I came up with. Still the issue arises -- the Bible is parenthetical to whether one is "elect" or not.

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

How does that work, Larry -- the "elect saved through belief" part? Are they saved on account of they are "elect" or on account of their belief?

Yes. This is like asking "Did your car start because you turned the key? Or because it had gas in it?" Both are necessary.

It sounds like this to me -- God promises the "elect" that they are saved by believing Christ's teachings. Is that "progressive salvation?" Or instantaneously at some point in time? "Through belief" I'm trying to put my brain around that infinitive phrase.

Belief is the means of a sort through which they are saved.

They're really saved through election, aren't they?

No.

Cause it sounds like God makes the "elect" believe and "belief" as you use it is just a "phase" they have to go through after salvation is already assured.

Salvation is assured by election, but is not received until belief.

I'm not trying to be obdurate but the salvation part still sounds unconditional so that the "belief" is a consequence of being chosen -- so how could belief have anything to do with the salvation part?

Because God ordained it that way.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Here's what it -- "elect saved through belief" -- sounds like to me: that you don't believe in order to be saved but because you believe you are saved.

Incorrect. You believe because you are elect. You are saved because you believe. "Elect" and "saved" are not interchangeable. They are clearly distinct.

Still the issue arises -- the Bible is parenthetical to whether one is "elect" or not.

No it's not.

 

[psalms109:31]

Path

We are being elected to salvation through the Gospel.

You have two paths you can go. Believe and trust to Jesus, submission or walk away to condemnation.

The Gospel is foolishnes to those who are perishing, but to us who believe it is the power of God unto salvation.

You are dead, so the Gospel is foolishness. Until you trust in Jesus and come to Him to have life. It will continue to be foolishness.

It is the work of God that you believe, so trust in Him even through the foolishness of the Gospel

 

[webdog]

So why not just treat him as a troll and ignore him?

Maybe because he's not? Donna was out of line in attacking him.

 

[Pastor Larry]

We are being elected to salvation through the Gospel.

Well you are changing. You used to say we were elected through faith. You never managed to show that from Scripture. Perhaps you can show this from Scripture. So tell us, where does Scripture tell us that we are elected to salvation through the gospel?

You have two paths you can go. Believe and trust to Jesus, submission or walk away to condemnation.

Careful ... You are sounding like a Calvinist.

The Gospel is foolishnes to those who are perishing, but to us who believe it is the power of God unto salvation.

And more Calvinism.

You are dead, so the Gospel is foolishness. Until you trust in Jesus and come to Him to have life. It will continue to be foolishness.

So here's the question: If the gospel is foolishness when you are dead, why would you trust in it for salvation? This seems to me to refute your whole position.

It is the work of God that you believe, so trust in Him even through the foolishness of the Gospel

How is this different than Calvinism?

You sound like a Calvinist all except the first statement. Why?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Maybe because he's not? Donna was out of line in attacking him.

My suggestion was that she/we treat him "like a troll" by ignoring him, even if he really doesn't meet the full definition of a troll, the treatment can be the same.

Personally in my short time here at the board, I have already seen who is not worth arguing with. Skypair is one of them.
You are not.

 

[johnp.]

psalms.

You are dead, so the Gospel is foolishness. Until you trust in Jesus and come to Him to have life.

You are dead Unless you are born again you are dead. Flesh gives birth to flesh. Whatever you do only gives rise to more flesh. Spirit gives birth to spirit. One must be born again.

...so trust in Him even through the foolishness of the Gospel

The gospel is not foolish to the sheep it is foolish to those perishing.

john.

 

[psalms109:31]

foolishness

It is foolishness to the dead, but if the dead come to Jesus they will have life.

Until you come to Jesus you are dead in your trangression and sin.

Sheep will come to Jesus even with the foolishness of the Gospel being preached.

It is not foolishness to those who are being saved by it. Sheep are the ones who come to Jesus. The goats will try to lead them to the pit of destruction.

You don't have to be born again to trust in Jesus, you have to born again to see heaven. People can trust in another without being born again.

Do not let a goat tell you, you can't come to Jesus. The Father is not stopping you from comming.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, even if men can't understand that truth. You can believe God and His word.

Matthew 9:36
When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.

 

[Andy T.]

Are you going to answer my question?

Do you have children, Andy? Do you show them their faults? Do you love them? Do you disown them?

Andy, are we still "stuck" with a 400 year old paradigm that doesn't even take into account a lot of issues like eschatology, like triunity of the human person, like Israel, on and on??? Andy, the ill-contructed building (1Cor 3) apparently has to be brought down one brick at a time. Men were NOT careful how they built thereon!

skypair

To answer your question - I am already saved. I was saved when I repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. And I plead with others who are not saved - that they need to repent and believe on Christ. Does that answer your question?

Yes, I have children. Yes, I try to instruct them in the way they should go. But I don't construct lies about their behavior - I deal with what their actual problems are and teach them accordingly. I guess this is where the problem lies between us - you see us Calvinists as mere children where you are this overwhelming authority over us. Your approach is arrogant and loud and obnoxious. You set yourself up as an authority in this matter, but you have shown time and time again that you know very little about what us little kids believe. Like Larry said, we can be teachable when the one teaching us actually knows what they are teaching. You do not. I think it's time for you to let some other non-Cals on this board take up your mantle. You have shown yourself as unworthy in this debate.

 

[skypair]

Here's my question to you: If people are saved because God foresees that they will believe, how is that any more miraculous than people being saved because God chooses them? In fact, isn't God personally active in salvation because of foresight than he is in salvation because of election.

Very good question! God choosing and then giving the "elect" some 'extra brain' cell by which they will believe without fail would probably be considered to be, like childbirth, "natural" -- normative to His creation -- rather than "miraculous," wouldn't you think? Calvin does not establish when this gets "implanted." Some say the "elect" are regenerated before birth. Some say by baptism. ALL Calvinists seem to believe that the Holy Spirit indwelling comes before faith somehow. That is, rather than the Spirit being an "influence," most Calvinists believe He, living in them, allow them to "hear" the gospel whereas the nonelect don't on account of the defect of not having the Spirit already. Is that how you see it?

Depending, I suppose, on how you define miraculous, but since you admit that everything after the choosing is miraculous, that means your original argument—that in Calvinism, salvation is a natural concept—is completely bunk.

I agreed that everything God does is miractulous. The problem is that most men call His miraculous "natural." So, indeed, we have see that childbirth is "natural" and miraculous depending on whether you are talking about reproduction or life.

skypair

 

[skypair]

=skypair]Quote:
How does that work, Larry -- the "elect saved through belief" part? Are they saved on account of they are "elect" or on account of their belief?

Larry: Yes. This is like asking "Did your car start because you turned the key? Or because it had gas in it?" Both are necessary.

Hmm. So that's like saying that God didn't "gas up" the nonelect cause when their "key is turned," they don't respond? So "election" is the "gas," the gospel is the "turning the key," and believing is the "engine" that runs?

Doesn't that mean that the "elect" have something within them that the non-elect don't? Something that makes them better than totally depraved? The fact that the engine runs -- believes -- is the proof of "election?"

That does sound like a very good illustration. Did you hear it somewhere or did you make it up?

Belief is the means of a sort through which they are saved.

See, that's what I believe. It's the "of a sort" that divides us, isn't it? What I see as the first cause of salvation, you see as the effect of salvation if I'm hearing you right.

Salvation is assured by election, but is not received until belief.

I don't know, Larry. That sounds like "a dog chasing his tail" to me. :laugh: And doesn't "not received until belief" make salvation conditional like I also believe??

skypair

 

[skypair]

Andy

Sorry you feel that way. So ya know what? I'm going to quit being a "stumbling block" to you and others. It's not worth attracting you kind of responses. I'll just pray for you instead.

I guess it goes without saying that at a Baptist board, there are no real Calvinists.

skypair

 

[russell55]

God choosing and then giving the "elect" some 'extra brain' cell by which they will believe without fail would probably be considered to be, like childbirth, "natural" -- normative to His creation -- rather than "miraculous," wouldn't you think?

Nobody believes that God gives the elect some extra brain cell by which they believe, so answering the question is pointless.

Calvin does not establish when this gets "implanted."

Of course not. Why would he, since he didn't believe anything was implanted.

Some say the "elect" are regenerated before birth.

Some say that elect infants who die in the womb may be regenerated before birth. If so, this would be a miraculous act whereby they are made new creatures by God's supernatural work.

Some say by baptism.

You're mixing up Calvinists with Lutherans or Catholics on this. Calvinists, even those who baptize infants, don't think that baptism regenerates.

ALL Calvinists seem to believe that the Holy Spirit indwelling comes before faith somehow. That is, rather than the Spirit being an "influence," most Calvinists believe He, living in them, allow them to "hear" the gospel whereas the nonelect don't on account of the defect of not having the Spirit already. Is that how you see it?

I believe the Holy Spirit makes them a new creature and so they believe.

And it's not "rather than the Spirit being an "influence"". This is the way the Spirit influences.

I agreed that everything God does is miractulous. The problem is that most men call His miraculous "natural." So, indeed, we have see that childbirth is "natural" and miraculous depending on whether you are talking about reproduction or life.

But what men call it is irrelevant. Calvinists see salvation as a miraculous event, thus the whole point of your opening post is shot, and there's really nothing left to discuss in regards to this subject.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Hmm. So that's like saying that God didn't "gas up" the nonelect cause when their "key is turned," they don't respond? So "election" is the "gas," the gospel is the "turning the key," and believing is the "engine" that runs?

Nope. It's not like saying that at all. It's like saying that both thigns are needed.

Doesn't that mean that the "elect" have something within them that the non-elect don't? Something that makes them better than totally depraved? The fact that the engine runs -- believes -- is the proof of "election?"

At regeneration or calling, the elect have somethign that the non-elect don't. That does not make them better than the non-elect. It is given to them by God.

That does sound like a very good illustration. Did you hear it somewhere or did you make it up?

It is a very good illustration, provided you use it rightly. However, you didn't. The illustration is not intended to be an allegory where each thing is assigned meaning. It is intended to communicate a big picture, that both things are necesssary.

What I see as the first cause of salvation, you see as the effect of salvation if I'm hearing you right.

No, you are not hearing me right .... still. Belief is not the effect of salvation. It is the result of regeneration or effectual calling, and results in salvation.

I don't know, Larry. That sounds like "a dog chasing his tail" to me.

It's not. It's historic orthodoxy.

And doesn't "not received until belief" make salvation conditional like I also believe??

Nope, not really ... Not conditional like you believe.

 

[skypair]

Bro. Larry

OK, so now there are 2 things: 1) chosen/"elect" and 2) belief. Is that right?

Is "elect" a pre-existing status or does it occur simultaneous with belief? See, I thought in the illustration that the gas was there already (or it wasn't) and the key was the point of belief. Are you saying that you get the "gas" and the "key" at the same time now?

skypair