I think he was part of the Sanhedrin and right there as one condemning him. Can we prove I don't think so
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Cain and God?
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
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And you agreed. You also agreed that he did have faith. You are simply playing a game of semantics because you previously agreed with me in almost every every point. All men have faith, don't they? It may be as you call it "carnal" but it is faith. He did not exercise what you call "saving faith". But he did have faith. IOW, he had the ability to exercise a choice to worship God correctly. Even God affirmed that after his rebellion.
In Gen.4:7: If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
--We see that God states here that Cain had the ability to do right, to exercise the faith that God wanted him to do. It is not that he couldn't, it is that he wouldn't.
True. But there is nor underlying reason why he could not have offered the same sacrifice as Abel did. It is a simple matter of choosing between right and wrong. Contrary to some preconceived assumptions Cain knew who God was unlike most unregenerate men.
Again, more semantics. Taken to an extreme is God totally free? No. He is not free to lie. He is not free to do that which is against his nature. We, including the Lord, all work within the confines of our nature. Your objection is irrelevant.
No it didn't. He chose not to sacrifice the proper sacrifice. His wicked heart did not prevent him. It was a matter of decision. He will give account for that decision. You are inadvertently blaming God, and not realizing it.
Will Cain some day be able to say? "Lord you made my heart wicked so that I could do no good thing, therefore my sin is your fault?"
No. He, of his own will, chose to do wrong. He made the choice of his own will. He was not compelled by "a wicked heart" that God indirectly gave him through the Fall. That is blaming God for his sin.
same as above.
revmwc
Here is my whole post.....
Never....not one time are we said to be saved...BECAUSE of faith.
It is always by or through faith......NEVER BECAUSE OF FAITH.
Notice....your statement bears out exactly what I said...By Faith
It is not another point of view.....it is wickedness to change what God has inscripturated and substitute your own ideas instead.....
This is eisegesis.
God did no such thing. If it is necessary for you to twist the wording like this, you will never come to truth as you no longer have the word of God....you have departed.
God "asked Cain" 3 questions....He did not "tell him to do anything!
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No one said He could....a red herring!
Here is my whole post.....
Never....not one time are we said to be saved...BECAUSE of faith.
It is always by or through faith......NEVER BECAUSE OF FAITH.
Notice....your statement bears out exactly what I said...By Faith
Once God grants faith to a person, they exercise it....
It is not another point of view.....it is wickedness to change what God has inscripturated and substitute your own ideas instead.....
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This is eisegesis.
Now you apply a quote to saved persons as if it applies to all men. It does not.
God did no such thing. If it is necessary for you to twist the wording like this, you will never come to truth as you no longer have the word of God....you have departed.
God "asked Cain" 3 questions....He did not "tell him to do anything!
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No one said He could....a red herring!
revmwc
Your numerous falsehoods are now leading into complete absurdities now.
Perhaps as we follow the godly line we can suggest the promise of the seed was past on.
This is not only an absurdity, but contradicts the testimony of Romans 1. The tower of babel was a judgment on mankind. let's see where this foolish speculation leads you>>...
EekFrownCautiousCautiousSickSickSick Look at what you post here in a desperate attempt to avoid clear scriptural teaching.....
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
The heathen worship dead idols, and demon spirits....not the true God. How you can even post such an idea is ponderous.
This goes directly against romans 1 which states that the heathen nations worldwide exchanged the truth for a lie, long ago. God's wrath is revealed against this sin.
You suggest it was a good thing, or beneficial in some way to the perishing heathen.CautiousCautious
Your numerous falsehoods are now leading into complete absurdities now.
Where do you see any biblical evidence of this astounding claim?
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Perhaps as we follow the godly line we can suggest the promise of the seed was past on.
This is not only an absurdity, but contradicts the testimony of Romans 1. The tower of babel was a judgment on mankind. let's see where this foolish speculation leads you>>...
EekFrownCautiousCautiousSickSickSick Look at what you post here in a desperate attempt to avoid clear scriptural teaching.....20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
The heathen worship dead idols, and demon spirits....not the true God. How you can even post such an idea is ponderous.
This goes directly against romans 1 which states that the heathen nations worldwide exchanged the truth for a lie, long ago. God's wrath is revealed against this sin.
You suggest it was a good thing, or beneficial in some way to the perishing heathen.CautiousCautious
They cannot answer this with the theological system they try and use....Rmac has just failed trying to do so.
When their system gets down to the brass tacks...it's really copper-plated brads(
Laugh ) they push mysticism. Ole steaver said that in remote places where the gospel could not be reached, Jesus Himself, personally showed up, and a revival of souls happened. In the same thread, Brother mwc used mysticism to 'prove' Native Americans worshipped God. CautiousLet me ask you about this scenario. What is your opinion?When their system gets down to the brass tacks...it's really copper-plated brads(
A man in a Muslim nation comes across a Bible. He begins reading the NT. Perhaps from the gospel of John he begins to understand why Islam is wrong, especially in the light of the present violence and the love of God presented in the gospel. He begins to understand the gospel. In fact he does. The Holy Spirit convicts him of sin; he prays and asks Christ to save him. IOW, he is saved by reading the Bible alone.
Would you believe his testimony or dismiss it as impossible because it goes against your pre-conceived theology?
People are saved by the word of God(bible), by the gospel. I would believe God would/could save him via this scenario you posed.
I am against people being saved without ever hearing the gospel, reading His word, being testified to, preached to. In other words, people don't get saved out of thin air. There are means He uses. Not just some pygmy in deepest, darkest Africa being saved without reading a bible, never hearing the word via preaching and/or witnessing.
That is what Brother steaver and Brother mwc are purporting. Full-blown mysticism.
Let me add one caveat...
If a scenario like this comes to fruition, I believe God will send someone firmly settled in the word to better expound what he has read.
Yes.
Yes.
I was showing you your 'faith is faith' isn't correct. That's like saying all vehicles are the same. Yet there are trucks, cars, vans, and SUV's. Cars are not trucks. Trucks are not vans. Vans are not cars. SUV's are not trucks. Innate faith does not save. Innate faith is exercised by the unregenerate every day. It is directed towards family, friends, inanimate objects, &c. But this innate faith is never exercised in salvation. Divine faith is given when the sinner is quickened to life.
People take $$$ to Vegas or Atlantic City and have faith they can win more only to come home 'broke as a joke.' People have faith in their $$$ making them happy only to be found dead after committing suicide. People have faith in their spouse when they marry them only to divorce them after they found out they were cheating on them. Innate faith saves nary a soul. But it is not the same faith that saves sinners. Not even close.
He didn't have it to exercise. That's why he didn't exercise saving faith. Innate faith isn't found in the bible, either, but you beat your gums saying it all the time.
Cain's faith was innate and was not from God.
And his deeds, his actions, show how vile Cain really was. By him not worshipping him correctly shows his wicked heart.
And this further exposed Cain's wicked heart. God spoke with him personally. Not once did Cain seek reconciliation. Not once did he show remorse. Not once did he exercise repentance. If he did well, he would be accepted? Absolutely. But he didn't, which further exposed his wicked heart.
Wrong. He said if he did well, he'd be accepted. But Cain's deeds showed he didn't have the ability to do well.
Seeing he is one generation removed from God, he should have known God. But he offered a sacrifice from the toil of his hands, devoid of blood.
Yes it is relevant. You keep saying people have free will, when in fact, they don't. People are either slaves to Satan or Christ. Our wills are never free, but bound to the confines of our natures. Cain's will was bound to himself and Satan, as he was of the wicked one.
I say, aver, Cain had a wicked heart, and somehow and am inadverently blaming God? Boy, that's a dandy. People make choices every day. Even wicked people do some good from time-to-time, but the vast majority of the time, they make the wrong ones.
Christians makes foolish choices from time-to-time, but the vast majority of the times they make the correct ones. Cain continually made the wrong choices. He offered the wrong sacrifice. He killed his brother. He scoffed at God when asked where was his brother. Showed no remorse, did not seek reconciliation, offered no repentance. All of this completely exposed the wickedness of Cain's heart.
Now you're theology is off the rails. Man's heart after the fall became wicked, even from birth. No one can even know it.[Jeremiah 17:9] Cain will answer for his wicked heart.
Agree. From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. By continually choosing wrongly, this shows his wickedness.
I never said God gave him a wicked heart, indirectly or directly. Show me where I posted this. You need to stop this....NOW!! Cain, being Adam's posterity(just as you and I are), was born with wicked hearts that came FROM Adam and NOT God. That's why we have to teach kids from a very early age to not lie, steal, be coveteous, hit other kids, &c. That is already there. They already know how to 'do' sin. We never have to teach them how to sin. They already have that covered.
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Those who died nanoseconds after Christ died on the Christ who truly heard a savior was coming would be saved, just as ALL O.T. believers were saved, by looking forward to the Savior who came. Anyone who believes God will send a savior and is in a remote area and hasn't heard of Christ would be saved, why because they have followed what God said they believe a savior is coming, Christ has come that is true but they haven't heard of Him.
Acts 19:
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
When were these saved?
When they believed John's Gospel?
Or When Paul told them of Christ?
When were O.T. believers saved?
When they offered sacrifices or when they believed in the promised savior?
I see those in Acts 19 as saved under John's preaching "saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him" they believed and were baptized, and yet they hadn't heard of Jesus until Paul came into contact with them. They were nonetheless saved. So too with anyone who believes in the savior who is coming if they haven't heard of Christ in this period of time, they still have a remnant since the scattering.
What about those that died not knowing He was coming?
Do you know any who didn't hear? I don't
We see at the scattering?
Genesis 11
1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
How many of these had believed on the savior? We know some did because Job and his friends had heard, Abram had heard as well as others.
What of those in Jericho, just a few were saved before its destruction and yet we see Rahab saying,
Joshua 2:
9 And she said unto the men, I know that the Lord hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.
10 For we have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.
11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the Lord your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.
She heard not form anyone saved but the stories had come and she believed, notice what she believed, "for the Lord your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath."
In the scattering at Babel do you believe God gave one language to those who were saved or were believers scattered with the unbeliever all over the earth?
So let's see this,
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
In the times of the O.T. God spoke at sundry time and in divers manners unto the fathers by the Prophets. Let's see who were prophets in the O.T., was Noah? Seems as if Noah prophesied that a flood was coming he told all of His world for 120 years he preached the gospel. What about Enoch was he a prophet? Did He has so close a relationship to God that God took him?
What about Shem, Ham and Japheth would they have prophisied to their children? God still has prophet's among all peoples groups, a remnant in the world all over the world who tell of God and His plan.
Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Romans 11:
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself
seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
God has remnant of believers all over the world. They tell those around them.
Bro. mwc, I mean this not in mean spiritedness, but in love...you are dangerous with a bible in your hands.
And no! Not everyone has heard. You're off the rails here. People worshipping inanimate objects like statues and trees, cows, Allah and Mohammed, have not heard. Please. Just. Stop.
I am glad to hear you would agree.
Icon and his twin IT would not, at least not from what I read in their posts. Everything is black and white. 1Cor.2:14 comes into play. He is unregenerate. He cannot understand spiritual things. Therefore he cannot understand the Bible he reads and cannot be saved. That is the conclusion I draw from their posts.
But to take it a step farther (apart from what they say).
If this converted Muslim tells only two or three close members of his family (remember it is an Islamic nation), then dies three years later, do you still believe he was saved if that is all the outward fruit he bore?
Not all worship those things, the Muslim nations have Christians how do you think their beheading Christians in those nations. Not all worship idols or cows or trees you just assume they all do. That's your theory and yet missionaries tell stories of finding folks in supposedly in unreached areas who say they've waited to hear the savior has come.
TY I appreciate the compliment
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Not all have heard, you're in error as usual here. SG nailed it about you and a Bible in your hands. Your teachings aren't from what the Bible says, they are from what you make it say, falsely. I pray your eyes to be opened as you've been thoroughly 'presuppositionalized' by Finney and Pelagian teachings.
Does your church send out missionaries? Why bother, they've already all heard according to your teachings. Your teachings are so utterly inconsistent and unbiblical it's scary to behold.
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