Cain and God?

[SovereignGrace]

The Gospel has been preached to all mankind since the Fall. Adam told his children, Seth passed it on. Noah, Japheth, Shem and Ham passed it down to their children. When God scattered mankind and gave them languages many of each language passed the gospel down. So that even the tribes of native Indians had a belief in the Great Father who created the world and would send a savior, many believed that. Were those who accepted the Gospel of John the Baptist and hadn't heard of Jesus any less saved than those who had heard of Jesus. When they heard about Jesus they believed the story because they had believed John.

Sigh.

And look at the world now. People worship cows. People worship trees. People worship statues. The Germans before and during WWII literally worshipped Hitler. The RCC literally worship the Pope/papal office as a whole. The Muslims worship Allah/Mohammed.

Man, innately, knows to worship. But in their fallen innateness, they can not worship God. As Jesus told the woman in John 4, those who worship Him, do so in Spirit and in truth. That is why people worship idols such as trees, cows, statues, fake gods such as Allah, &c.

The gospel has not been passed down to everybody.

 

[revmwc]

Oh lawd...please quit misapplying God's divine foreknowledge, He foreknew the choices Saul of Tarsus would make. He knew because he was a chosen person by God. You have God cow-towing to man's decisions. That is not the biblical God. That is not how God is portrayed in the bible. Not even close.

Paul states that we are elect by the Forknowledge of God, an Omniscient ALL Knowing God. Why do have a problem believing God is Omniscient and Knows everything. He wasn't cow-towing to Saul it was Saul who came to God and God knew exactly what would happen. Just as He knew the choice Adam would make. Nothing surprises Him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Paul states that we are elect by the Forknowledge of God, an Omniscient ALL Knowing God. Why do have a problem believing God is Omniscient and Knows everything. He wasn't cow-towing to Saul it was Saul who came to God and God knew exactly what would happen. Just as He knew the choice Adam would make. Nothing surprises Him.

You are saying God foreknew and then in this forknowing, elected them. I don't have a problem with God's foreknowledge in the least. I do, however, have a HUGE problem with your abuse of how you apply it.

You are saying God looked through the portals of time and saw those who would do this or do that and He elected them accordingly. That's full-blown open theism.

 

[revmwc]

Sigh.

And look at the world now. People worship cows. People worship trees. People worship statues. The Germans before and during WWII literally worshipped Hitler. The RCC literally worship the Pope/papal office as a whole. The Muslims worship Allah/Mohammed.

Man, innately, knows to worship. But in their fallen innateness, they can not worship God. As Jesus told the woman in John 4, those who worship Him, do so in Spirit and in truth. That is why people worship idols such as trees, cows, statues, fake gods such as Allah, &c.

The gospel has not been passed down to everybody.

Sounds like it to me:
An American Indian Tribe:

Ababinili is the Creator God of the Chickasaw tribe. His name means "one who sits above" or "dwells above," and he is associated with the Sun. Ababinili is considered to be a divine spirit with no human form or attributes and is not normally personified in Chickasaw myths.

Gudatrigakwitl means "The Ancient One Above" in the Wiyot language, and is the Wiyot name for the Creator (God.) Gudatrigakwitl is a divine spirit with no human form or attributes and is never personified in Wiyot myths.

See what this one sounds like!


History of the Anishinaabek

In the beginning, Gizhemanidoo created the universe as we know it today. He created Grandfather Sun and Grandmother Moon, Mother Earth and Father Sky. And on the earth he created all things, living and nonliving. He created life in the earth, on the earth, in the sky and in the water. He created the plants, rivers, four-legged and winged creatures, and the swimmers. After this was done, he created one of the greatest mysteries of all – the four seasons – to bring harmony and balance to all.

After all creation was complete, he created man. After he created the first Anishinaabe, he came to him in a dream and instructed him that he was to name all things in the language that he gave him, Anishinaabemowin. So the first man went about on his journey and named all things he saw – all the animals, insects, birds and fish – however long this took. Afterward, he spoke to the Creator Gizhemanidoo in his dream and said, “I have finished what you have told me to do.” Then the Creator Gizhemanidoo spoke back to him and said, “Yes, you have indeed done so, and now it is time for me to give you your name. Your name shall be Nanabozho, and whenever your people meet and greet one another, they will say a part of your name. That is why whenever the Anishinaabe people greet one another, they say the word Bozhoo.

God has a remnant in all people groups that has been with them since the scattering at Babel.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sounds like it to me:
An American Indian Tribe:

Ababinili is the Creator God of the Chickasaw tribe. His name means "one who sits above" or "dwells above," and he is associated with the Sun. Ababinili is considered to be a divine spirit with no human form or attributes and is not normally personified in Chickasaw myths.

Gudatrigakwitl means "The Ancient One Above" in the Wiyot language, and is the Wiyot name for the Creator (God.) Gudatrigakwitl is a divine spirit with no human form or attributes and is never personified in Wiyot myths.

See what this one sounds like!


History of the Anishinaabek

In the beginning, Gizhemanidoo created the universe as we know it today. He created Grandfather Sun and Grandmother Moon, Mother Earth and Father Sky. And on the earth he created all things, living and nonliving. He created life in the earth, on the earth, in the sky and in the water. He created the plants, rivers, four-legged and winged creatures, and the swimmers. After this was done, he created one of the greatest mysteries of all – the four seasons – to bring harmony and balance to all.

After all creation was complete, he created man. After he created the first Anishinaabe, he came to him in a dream and instructed him that he was to name all things in the language that he gave him, Anishinaabemowin. So the first man went about on his journey and named all things he saw – all the animals, insects, birds and fish – however long this took. Afterward, he spoke to the Creator Gizhemanidoo in his dream and said, “I have finished what you have told me to do.” Then the Creator Gizhemanidoo spoke back to him and said, “Yes, you have indeed done so, and now it is time for me to give you your name. Your name shall be Nanabozho, and whenever your people meet and greet one another, they will say a part of your name. That is why whenever the Anishinaabe people greet one another, they say the word Bozhoo.

God has a remnant in all people groups that has been with them since the scattering at Babel.

Unless he and his tribe had been exposed to the gospel, they died lost. What you are saying is he and his people were saved by mystic means.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sounds like it to me:
An American Indian Tribe:

Ababinili is the Creator God of the Chickasaw tribe. His name means "one who sits above" or "dwells above," and he is associated with the Sun. Ababinili is considered to be a divine spirit with no human form or attributes and is not normally personified in Chickasaw myths.

Gudatrigakwitl means "The Ancient One Above" in the Wiyot language, and is the Wiyot name for the Creator (God.) Gudatrigakwitl is a divine spirit with no human form or attributes and is never personified in Wiyot myths.

See what this one sounds like!


History of the Anishinaabek

In the beginning, Gizhemanidoo created the universe as we know it today. He created Grandfather Sun and Grandmother Moon, Mother Earth and Father Sky. And on the earth he created all things, living and nonliving. He created life in the earth, on the earth, in the sky and in the water. He created the plants, rivers, four-legged and winged creatures, and the swimmers. After this was done, he created one of the greatest mysteries of all – the four seasons – to bring harmony and balance to all.

After all creation was complete, he created man. After he created the first Anishinaabe, he came to him in a dream and instructed him that he was to name all things in the language that he gave him, Anishinaabemowin. So the first man went about on his journey and named all things he saw – all the animals, insects, birds and fish – however long this took. Afterward, he spoke to the Creator Gizhemanidoo in his dream and said, “I have finished what you have told me to do.” Then the Creator Gizhemanidoo spoke back to him and said, “Yes, you have indeed done so, and now it is time for me to give you your name. Your name shall be Nanabozho, and whenever your people meet and greet one another, they will say a part of your name. That is why whenever the Anishinaabe people greet one another, they say the word Bozhoo.

God has a remnant in all people groups that has been with them since the scattering at Babel.

Man innately knows that God exists. I do not deny this. Romans 1 avers this, too. But to worship God is to know Christ. Not merely know of His existence, but to know Him in an intimate relationship. Unless this tribe heard the gospel, repented of their sins, and worshipped God through Christ, this is full-blown mysticism.

 

[revmwc]

You are saying God foreknew and then in this forknowing, elected them. I don't have a problem with God's foreknowledge in the least. I do, however, have a HUGE problem with your abuse of how you apply it.

You are saying God looked through the portals of time and saw those who would do this or do that and He elected them accordingly. That's full-blown open theism.

So how do you apply His Foreknowledge?

Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

What was kept secret from the foundation of the world? The things the prophets spoke, God knew what would occur for mankind before the foundation of the world, that is His Foreknowledge.

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

The blood of the prophets would be shed and God knew how and when before the foundation of the world how by His Foreknowledge that is He knew beforehand.

Ephesian 4:1 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He has chosen us, who all who would believe and He did it before the foundation of the world.

If God knew all this before the Foundation of the world we see what Peter said of our election,

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Elect according to His foreknowledge. He knew man would fall and elected Christ to come and die for man's sin, Christ was chosen before the foundation of the World to come to earth and die. Why is so hard to see that God knowing all this beforehand would not know beforehand the choices every person would make?

He knew each prophet and He knew how each would die, He knew His prophets and He knew the disciples before the foundation of the world.

 

[revmwc]

Man innately knows that God exists. I do not deny this. Romans 1 avers this, too. But to worship God is to know Christ. Not merely know of His existence, but to know Him in an intimate relationship. Unless this tribe heard the gospel, repented of their sins, and worshipped God through Christ, this is full-blown mysticism.

So the O.T. believers knew Christ?

 

[revmwc]

Unless he and his tribe had been exposed to the gospel, they died lost. What you are saying is he and his people were saved by mystic means.

So every one in the O.T. died because they were not exposed to Christ, that of course means all but Enoch, Noah, Moses and Abraham for He appeared to them. But very few were exposed to the Gospel according to this, why because they didn't see Christ, they believed the promise of Genesis 3:15. A seed would come who would be the Savior and that is what many people groups believed and many unreached with the story of Christ still believe a savior is coming.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So how do you apply His Foreknowledge?

Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

What was kept secret from the foundation of the world? The things the prophets spoke, God knew what would occur for mankind before the foundation of the world, that is His Foreknowledge.

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

The blood of the prophets would be shed and God knew how and when before the foundation of the world how by His Foreknowledge that is He knew beforehand.

Ephesian 4:1 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He has chosen us, who all who would believe and He did it before the foundation of the world.

If God knew all this before the Foundation of the world we see what Peter said of our election,

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Elect according to His foreknowledge. He knew man would fall and elected Christ to come and die for man's sin, Christ was chosen before the foundation of the World to come to earth and die. Why is so hard to see that God knowing all this beforehand would not know beforehand the choices every person would make?

He knew each prophet and He knew how each would die, He knew His prophets and He knew the disciples before the foundation of the world.

Foreknowledge is God knowing things happening before they do. But it is foreknowing things because He decreed them to come to pass.

 

[revmwc]

You are saying God foreknew and then in this forknowing, elected them. I don't have a problem with God's foreknowledge in the least. I do, however, have a HUGE problem with your abuse of how you apply it.

You are saying God looked through the portals of time and saw those who would do this or do that and He elected them accordingly. That's full-blown open theism.

So this is open thiesm? Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

 

[SovereignGrace]

So the O.T. believers knew Christ?

They knew He was coming and placed their faith in God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So every one in the O.T. died because they were not exposed to Christ, that of course means all but Enoch, Noah, Moses and Abraham for He appeared to them. But very few were exposed to the Gospel according to this, why because they didn't see Christ, they believed the promise of Genesis 3:15. A seed would come who would be the Savior and that is what many people groups believed and many unreached with the story of Christ still believe a savior is coming.

All things God saw as already accomplished before He spoke 'Let there be light." When John penned Revelation, he saw the saints of God in their glorified state. Almost 2,000 years ago, John saw the Great White Throne Judgment. If John saw as it was unfolding almost 2,000 years ago, God saw infinetly before he did. Even the OT saints were saved by God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So this is open thiesm? Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

I have no clue what you are trying to prove by using this verse. Please expound.

 

[revmwc]

Foreknowledge is God knowing things happening before they do. But it is foreknowing things because He decreed them to come to pass.

Vinse shows The Greek "proginosko" before to know is used of Divine knowledge, concerning Christ foreknown foreordained, Beleivers Romans 8:29, "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of his foreordaining counsels; of human knowledge, of persons Acts 26:5, of facts 2 Peter 3:17.
He also state: [ B-1,Noun,G4268, prognosis ]
"a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of Divine "foreknowledge," Acts 2:23; 1 Peter 1:2. "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience; it is implied in God's warnings, promises and predictions. See Acts 15:18. God's "foreknowledge" involves His electing grace, but this does not preclude human will. He "foreknows" the exercise of faith which brings salvation. The Apostle Paul stresses especially the actual purposes of God rather than the ground of the purposes, See, e.g., Galatians 1:16; Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11. The Divine counsels will ever be unthwartable. Cp. FORESHEW.

Seems t hat by His Omniscience He Foreknew ALL things.

 

[revmwc]

They knew He was coming and placed their faith in God.

That of course is what all peoples groups scattered at Babel knew and some believed as they were scattered over the earth. God called Abram out of Ur while Job was in Uz and his friends traveled from other areas. They all believed after the scattering.

 

[revmwc]

I have no clue what you are trying to prove by using this verse. Please expound.

God knew beforehand, Foreknew the prophets and knew that they would be killed and that blood would be shed all before the foundation of the world. You said believing God saw all things before hand down to our choices was open theism so would this verse for God saw the choices the prophets would make to die for Him.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Hand me down from whom? Just reading and finding the Greek definitions. Where does your theology come from? Was it handed down to you too? My Pastor I grew up under taught one very important thing. Never believe anything your taught until you have proven it. That is why I always look at both views with an open mind and have ask the Holy Spirit to guide me to the truth. 1 Thes. 5:21, 1 John 4:1,1, Heb. 5:21.

You're OK sticking to book definitions but then you derail from the truth as you begin to add what you think it says into it, a la your 'belief comes from within us' statement.

No. Sir. It does not. Romans 10:17. The Word is there to correct you but you will have none of it.

Quoting definitions from books or other sources does not make your following statements accurate. You seem to feel otherwise, but you're off track my friend.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That of course is what all peoples groups scattered at Babel knew and some believed as they were scattered over the earth. God called Abram out of Ur while Job was in Uz and his friends traveled from other areas. They all believed after the scattering.

And if God had not called Abram out of Ur, he'd have died a pagan. The same with any Native American tribe post-cross. God spoke to His people in the OT and the last one He spoke verbally to was John. Since then, He no longer verbally communicates with us. We have His word and preachers He has called to give us what He said.

God chose Israel only and left the others to their own devices. Yet, even in Israel's election, only the remnant of them were His. Many called but few are chosen.

 

[SovereignGrace]

God knew beforehand, Foreknew the prophets and knew that they would be killed and that blood would be shed all before the foundation of the world. You said believing God saw all things before hand down to our choices was open theism so would this verse for God saw the choices the prophets would make to die for Him.

God knew beforehand because He decrees/decreed all that will ever happen. Once you grasp that, if you can grasp it is another matter, you will see what I am saying.