Cain and God?

[percho]

The flood in Noah's day was not intended to save all men. It was only a means to deliver those 8 souls from the world of the ungodly. God preserved the Godly line by that flood.
Fire and Brimstone was meant to destroy the wicked sodomites, not save them. God preserved just Lot preserving the Godly line.
In the Exodus God delivered Those identified with Moses......the water they passed through was death to the Egyptian soldiers.....it was not meant to save them.God preserved the Godly line.
God we are told is long suffering in our day......not willing that any perish.....
Any of His elect sheep that is....He is seeking and saving everyone of them as He preserves the Godly line.

That is what I have tried to point out from the chapter of, the faith, eleven Hebrews. To faith or unto faith about 1 to 3 million people passed through the sea. A few days or weeks later they were wanting a golden calf made.

They did not pass through the sea because of something they believed about God but because God through them was going send his Son, the faith, into the world, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

 

[revmwc]

Never....not one time are we said to be saved...BECAUSE of faith.
It is always by or through faith......NEVER BECAUSE OF FAITH.

By Faith Enoch was Translated, by Enoch's Faith He was Translated. It doesn't say Because of the Faith God gave to Enoch He was Translated. Cain was told by God do that which is right, that is believe and be saved, yet if God gives Faith wouldn't He have said to Cain, since I will not supply you with faith don't do that which is right because you can't I won't allow you too. That is what saying God gives Faith to some and not others has God saying. Yet we see Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

God told Cain to do that which was right and he would be accepted, yet if God supplies the Faith then God would have been lying to Cain for God would have to supply Faith for Cain to be accepted, He told Cain to do that which was right, that is place his faith in the Savior that was promised and offer the blood sacrifice. Can God lie, NO by no means.

 

[percho]

Never....not one time are we said to be saved...BECAUSE of faith.
It is always by or through faith......NEVER BECAUSE OF FAITH.

yes, also of nations; since one is God who shall declare righteous the circumcision by (out of) faith, and the uncircumcision through the faith. YLT R3:29

Would you give me your thoughts relative to, out of faith, as compared to, through, the faith.

Is that wording, out of faith and through the faith, one of circumcision and the other of uncircumcision, relative to the wording in Gal 3 23,25 of before the faith came and after the coming of the faith. Also of note would be verse 14 YLT that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.

 

[percho]

By Faith Enoch was Translated, by Enoch's Faith He was Translated. It doesn't say Because of the Faith God gave to Enoch He was Translated. Cain was told by God do that which is right, that is believe and be saved, yet if God gives Faith wouldn't He have said to Cain, since I will not supply you with faith don't do that which is right because you can't I won't allow you too. That is what saying God gives Faith to some and not others has God saying. Yet we see Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

God told Cain to do that which was right and he would be accepted, yet if God supplies the Faith then God would have been lying to Cain for God would have to supply Faith for Cain to be accepted, He told Cain to do that which was right, that is place his faith in the Savior that was promised and offer the blood sacrifice. Can God lie, NO by no means.

1 Tim 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Does that mean because he was without faith?
Did he all of a sudden generate, faith or did God translate Paul from unbelief unto belief, all of a suddenly?

 

[vooks]

The "few" are those who want God the rest do not want God and He accommodates them with eternal separation.

How is it the "few" got to be the way they are - wanting God?

Some say God did it to them others say its just the way they are.
There may be another answer - but its unknown IMO.

Whatever the answer God had of necessity to initiate the process as we are the hopeless, helpless and powerless race of Adams loins.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom (Christ) also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

We were and are not privy to this counsel, if we were then this never ending C and A debate would not be happening.

HankD

The bolded, it mans God NEVER 'initiates the process' in those that perish, right?

 

[vooks]

God has never intended to save all men without exception.

He wills that all those who perish should perish?

If God did not elect a multitude of sinners in Himself, no one would ever be saved.
God being perfect in all ways is saving all His Sheep.

'Elect' in this case being picking who to save?

 

[revmwc]

1 Tim 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Does that mean because he was without faith?
Did he all of a sudden generate, faith or did God translate Paul from unbelief unto belief, all of a suddenly?

Jesus came directly to Saul. Great light shown around Him, he went to his knees and heard the voice of Jesus. When he was told Jesus was speaking he said, notice Jesus didn't tell him what to do Sail asked but Jeaus go into the city. Paul had to choose to go, Ananias had to choose to go both had to use volition both had to make choices. Saul had to believe and faith came to him because He saw the light and believed it was Jesus.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I agree with all that you say except for one small point. I simply don't believe that God has to give you the faith to believe in Him. That is the only point in which we disagree.

In the fall, all of Adam's faculties such as love and faith became tainted by sin. This also was passed down to all his posterity. The unregenerate have faith in everything BUT God. This faith is innate and will save nary a soul. The unregenerate have love in everyone/everything BUT God. This love is innate and will save nary a soul.

In the divine quickening, the unregenerate is regenerated and infused with love and faith and they exercise them in salvation. That is why it is said "thy faith has saved thee".

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hebrews 11:5-7

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

He rewards those who diligently seek Him. The Greek uses ekzeteo = Thayer’s Strong’s places these as the use of that word by the Author of Hebrews.

And praytell, who are the one who seek Him? The bible explicitly states NONE seek Him. I reiterate...NONE.

1. To seek out, search

2. To seek out i.e. investigate, scrutinize

3. To seek for one’s self, beg, crave

4. To demand back, require.

God rewards those who seek out diligently seek Him out. Enoch sought Him out and walked with Him and God Translated Him, that is snatched Him out. Noah found grace because of Faith and believed in things not yet seen all by Faith.

And again, praytell, who are those who seek Him? Hmmmmm?

You're stance is contrary to any properly exegeted verse in all 66 books.

The word for faith in verses 5- 7 is pistis= Thayer/Strong’s=

1. Conviction of the truth of anything, belief, in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and joined with it

1. Relating to God

a. The conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ



2. Relating to Christ

1. A strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God

3. The religious beliefs of Christians.

4. Belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, Springing from faith in the same.

2. Fidelity, faithfulness

1. The character of one who can be relied on

The same Faith required for Noah and Enoch is the same Faith we have innately in us, without it we cannot please God. We come to God and when we come to Him we must believe, pisteuo

Thayer/ Strong’s

1. To think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

a. Of the thing believed,

1. To credit, have confidence

2. In a moral or religious reference.

1. Used in NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law od soul.

2. To Trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or doing something: saving faith

1bc) mere acknowledgement of some fact ot event: intellectual faith

2. To entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity

1. To be entrusted with a thing

Belief come from within us according to the term used in verse 6 He rewards those who diligently seek Him with salvation by Believing that He is the rewarded of those who diligently seek Him.
Cain failed to follow what God required, simple faith. Faith that a Savior was coming and salvation was not by His works, he needed on to believe and he chose to follow his own way, the Way of Cain.

This innate faith stuff needs to go. Innate faith is having faith in everything/everyone BUT God. The faith one has in his/her spouse is NOT the same faith that is exercised in salvation. Innate faith is within man and will not save one soul. Divine faith, given by God, is what saves.

 

[SovereignGrace]

We all belong to the Lord.
Romans 14:
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Both believer and unbeliever belong to the Lord and in the end every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

The context of Romans 7 is Paul addressing the believers at Rome and all believers of all time and not everybody who has ever lived. Whether we live or whether we die, we die unto the Lord is addressing believers and not believers.

Titus 1:i1 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

God shows His grace to all men.

And praytell, what about those who never heard the gospel and never knew of Christ's existence? You are taking one verse here and divorcing it from the entire context of the book of Titus.

For the grace that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

The context is that the grace of God, which is Jesus Christ, teaches believers how to live. It does not teach everybody. If that grace teaches everybody, then we have an awful sorry teacher with all the wickedness going on in the world.

Acts 17:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

In Him we live and move and have our being. Believers are the only ones in Him.

God purpose is for ALL MANKIND EVERYWHERE to Repent. Scripture is very clear on that. But because their conscience is seared they reject God and the Great Salvation He offers.

Everyone is commanded to repent, yes. Not everyone has that ability however. Even repentance is a gift of God, and not everyone is given that gift, either.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Jesus came directly to Saul. Great light shown around Him, he went to his knees and heard the voice of Jesus. When he was told Jesus was speaking he said, notice Jesus didn't tell him what to do Sail asked but Jeaus go into the city. Paul had to choose to go, Ananias had to choose to go both had to use volition both had to make choices. Saul had to believe and faith came to him because He saw the light and believed it was Jesus.

And if Saul said 'naw, I don't wanna...."????

 

[revmwc]

And praytell, what about those who never heard the gospel and never knew of Christ's existence? You are taking one verse here and divorcing it from the entire context of the book of Titus.

Who are you referring to that have never heard the gospel? Tell who hasn't heard God is going to send a savior?

 

[revmwc]

And if Saul said 'naw, I don't wanna...."????

He would have remained blinded and God would have stopped the persecution by him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

By Faith Enoch was Translated, by Enoch's Faith He was Translated.

Pouring your theology into the text, eh? It said by faith. Period. It didn't say by Enoch's faith or God's faith, but by faith. Period. Now, faith that saves is not innate but God-given.

It doesn't say Because of the Faith God gave to Enoch He was Translated.

It merely stated by faith.

Cain was told by God do that which is right,

And Cain's wicked heart was already exposed as he had already killed Abel, his brother.

that is believe and be saved, yet if God gives Faith wouldn't He have said to Cain, since I will not supply you with faith don't do that which is right because you can't I won't allow you too.

Not once did Cain ask for forgiveness after killing Abel. Not once did he show remorse, repentance. Cain was out for Cain. Period.

That is what saying God gives Faith to some and not others has God saying.

That is exactly what He does. He quickens,. makes alive, divinely quickens whosoever He chooses to.

Yet we see Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

This promise was not given to everybody without exception. Those who perished in the flood died without eternal life. The Egyptians who drowned in the Red Sea died without having eternal life. Those Jews who cried 'crucify Him, crucify Him", died not having eternal life. The promise of eternal life is extended to His chosen people. Period.

God told Cain to do that which was right and he would be accepted,

And yet Cain did not do what is right and repent. Cain was looking out for Cain. Period.

yet if God supplies the Faith

No 'ifs'. He does.

then God would have been lying to Cain

Quit spouting such nonsense.

for God would have to supply Faith for Cain to be accepted,

Bingo.

He told Cain to do that which was right, that is place his faith in the Savior that was promised and offer the blood sacrifice. Can God lie, NO by no means.

And Cain failed to do this. His wicked heart was exposed by God. He asked him were was his brother and he scoffed and said "am I my brother's keeper?" No where does Cain show any remorse. His wicked heart precluded him from doing so.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Who are you referring to that have never heard the gospel? Tell who hasn't heard God is going to send a savior?

What of those who died nanoseconds after Christ did? Those who were living in modern day Alaska? Did the gospel get to them who died at the same time Jesus did? Those who died in modern day south America at the time of Christ's ministry? Those who died there, did they hear the gospel before they died?

 

[SovereignGrace]

He would have remained blinded and God would have stopped the persecution by him.

Then God would have sought out another one to take Saul of Tarsus' place?

 

[HankD]

Methinks, that you emboldened, answers my question: Was Abel, of faith, see Hebrews 11, because he was born that way, ie, predestined, conformed to the image of the Son of God?

I don't think he was physically born that way, perhaps John the Baptist was - being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb but then again I believe John the Baptist was an exception as it appears that he must have been born of the Spirit while in his mother's womb. It could be possible that the "elect" (those who will eventually believe) are predisposed to hearing and heading the gospel. I don't know for sure, there is no proof text (apart from the debatable "predestination" texts).

All of us being born dead in trespasses and sin seems to exclude that possibility yet predisposing could still be a definite possibility though a seeming contradiction. It was that way with me, though I was running/hiding from God before my new birth there was a definite yearning to be acceptable to Him. One or two of the prophets seems to claim a relationship with God from the womb but then again they also are special cases like John the Baptist.

He does works, good works because he is, of faith, born that way. Isn't that what James means when he says? 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

No if you mean physical birth. Yes if you mean spiritual birth.
Good works are only "good" works if there has been a new birth or a circumcision of the heart.

Just as Cain's "good" work was good in his own eyes but was in reality it was evil and self gratifying. The object of Cains faith was himself that he was good in and of himself (unlike his father) therefore his sacrifice must be acceptable. He had the devil's face to face knowledge of God but was devoid of trusting faith in God whose Spirit was striving with him that he was indeed evil like his father Adam.

Later he proved that he was of the devil by murdering his brother.

I asked the question the other day maybe in this thread, I do not remember. Maybe both our faith and our works are of God.

No question about our faith as the scripture plainly declares that Jesus is the author and finisher (He wrote the owners manual) of our faith

In a sense our good works are our own good works for which we will be rewarded if we walk in the Spirit and allow Him to do good works through us and be His co-workers and don't grieve Him by habitually wandering off from His leading.

HankD

 

[revmwc]

Then God would have sought out another one to take Saul of Tarsus' place?

That is correct but you see because of His Foreknowledge about Saul, God knew the choice Saul would make. And Saul because of God's foreknowledge was elected and chosen to be the 12th Apostle who replaced Judas.

 

[revmwc]

What of those who died nanoseconds after Christ did? Those who were living in modern day Alaska? Did the gospel get to them who died at the same time Jesus did? Those who died in modern day south America at the time of Christ's ministry? Those who died there, did they hear the gospel before they died?

The Gospel has been preached to all mankind since the Fall. Adam told his children, Seth passed it on. Noah, Japheth, Shem and Ham passed it down to their children. When God scattered mankind and gave them languages many of each language passed the gospel down. So that even the tribes of native Indians had a belief in the Great Father who created the world and would send a savior, many believed that. Were those who accepted the Gospel of John the Baptist and hadn't heard of Jesus any less saved than those who had heard of Jesus. When they heard about Jesus they believed the story because they had believed John.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That is correct but you see because of His Foreknowledge about Saul, God knew the choice Saul would make. And Saul because of God's foreknowledge was elected and chosen to be the 12th Apostle who replaced Judas.

Oh lawd...please quit misapplying God's divine foreknowledge, He foreknew the choices Saul of Tarsus would make. He knew because he was a chosen person by God. You have God cow-towing to man's decisions. That is not the biblical God. That is not how God is portrayed in the bible. Not even close.