Cain was totally depraved
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Cain and God?
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
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Agreed, as I said before, Cain is an enigma and yes he is probably a special early on case to show that God indeed has a relationship with every individual which must of necessity begin with reproval of sin but can go no further than confrontational until there is a born again experience (which IMO is called the circumcision of the heart in the OT). No doubt Abel went through this as well, however he came to the light.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
And yes we also agree that Cain departed from the Lord -
Genesis 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
Good discussion SG.
HankD
All I am saying is that all faiths are not the same. The faith one exercises towards their spouse, chair, car, family, friends, &c, is innate. But that faith is not the same faith one exercises in their walk with God. One is innate, the other a divine gift.
Just like love. The love one has towards family, friends, spouse, coworkers, &c, resonnates from within man. It is an innate love. The ones who love God have been born of God, born of love.
Just the same as with faith. One who truly exercises faith towards God has been of of that faith.
Cain was devoid of the faith necessary to trust God. Those who place their faith in Him, have been born of that faith.
I agree with all that you say except for one small point. I simply don't believe that God has to give you the faith to believe in Him. That is the only point in which we disagree.
Was he born that way?
that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
What does it mean that his works are wrought in God? Were Abel's works, caused to exist, in God, therefore they were manifested?
Was Abel, of faith, see Hebrews 11, because he was born that way, ie, predestined, conformed to the image of the Son of God? Consider.
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3:15 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. Gen 4:1,2 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. Gen 4:25
Yes.
Cain was born a sinner as we all are. Each and every one of us has the seed of total depravity within us which we received from Adam our earthly father as did Cain.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned --
both verbs "spread" and "sinned" are aorist active indicative and IMO this means when Adam sinned we all sinned with him as God reckoned and the human race is totally depraved as a race and as individuals.
When you plant an apple tree the apple tree DNA contains the ability and the innate knowledge to produce apples.
Yes, even our little ones have the DNA of total depravity within them when they are conceived and also they have within them the ability and the knowledge to bear the fruits thereof unless they are restrained by their upbringing, society or the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Personally I don't like the term "total depravity" because it is a signature word of calvinism.
Our theology should not come from dead men's writings.
A 21st century apostle Paul would probably ask -
1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Calvin crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Arminius?
But that does not mean I don't have anything in common with the faith views of Calvin and/or Arminius.
But yes, we are "totally depraved" from conception. Given the right circumstances (apart from regeneration) the fruits of this depravity will come forth.
HankD
Theses are the people (verse 13) whose works are "wrought in God".
John 1
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Why try to go any deeper percho -why try to figure out all the mysteries of God's love?
"but rather rejoice, because your name is written in heaven".
All that matters is that you are born again brother.
HankD
Yes....from his conception.
vooks
Active Member
Is God interested in salvation of ALL men?
BecauSe if He does, but then proceeds to dish out life jackets(faith) to a few, the rest will simply perish, which contradicts His will/intention to save all. Else how can He intend to save ALL yet He affords salvation tools (faith) to a few?
Hebrews 11:5-7
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
He rewards those who diligently seek Him. The Greek uses ekzeteo = Thayer’s Strong’s places these as the use of that word by the Author of Hebrews.
1. To seek out, search
2. To seek out i.e. investigate, scrutinize
3. To seek for one’s self, beg, crave
4. To demand back, require.
God rewards those who seek out diligently seek Him out. Enoch sought Him out and walked with Him and God Translated Him, that is snatched Him out. Noah found grace because of Faith and believed in things not yet seen all by Faith.
The word for faith in verses 5- 7 is pistis= Thayer/Strong’s=
1. Conviction of the truth of anything, belief, in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and joined with it
1. Relating to God
a. The conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
2. Relating to Christ
1. A strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
3. The religious beliefs of Christians.
4. Belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, Springing from faith in the same.
2. Fidelity, faithfulness
1. The character of one who can be relied on
The same Faith required for Noah and Enoch is the same Faith we have innately in us, without it we cannot please God. We come to God and when we come to Him we must believe, pisteuo
Thayer/ Strong’s
1. To think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
a. Of the thing believed,
1. To credit, have confidence
2. In a moral or religious reference.
1. Used in NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law od soul.
2. To Trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or doing something: saving faith
1bc) mere acknowledgement of some fact ot event: intellectual faith
2. To entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
1. To be entrusted with a thing
Belief come from within us according to the term used in verse 6 He rewards those who diligently seek Him with salvation by Believing that He is the rewarded of those who diligently seek Him.
Cain failed to follow what God required, simple faith. Faith that a Savior was coming and salvation was not by His works, he needed on to believe and he chose to follow his own way, the Way of Cain.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
He rewards those who diligently seek Him. The Greek uses ekzeteo = Thayer’s Strong’s places these as the use of that word by the Author of Hebrews.
1. To seek out, search
2. To seek out i.e. investigate, scrutinize
3. To seek for one’s self, beg, crave
4. To demand back, require.
God rewards those who seek out diligently seek Him out. Enoch sought Him out and walked with Him and God Translated Him, that is snatched Him out. Noah found grace because of Faith and believed in things not yet seen all by Faith.
The word for faith in verses 5- 7 is pistis= Thayer/Strong’s=
1. Conviction of the truth of anything, belief, in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and joined with it
1. Relating to God
a. The conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
2. Relating to Christ
1. A strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
3. The religious beliefs of Christians.
4. Belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, Springing from faith in the same.
2. Fidelity, faithfulness
1. The character of one who can be relied on
The same Faith required for Noah and Enoch is the same Faith we have innately in us, without it we cannot please God. We come to God and when we come to Him we must believe, pisteuo
Thayer/ Strong’s
1. To think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
a. Of the thing believed,
1. To credit, have confidence
2. In a moral or religious reference.
1. Used in NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law od soul.
2. To Trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or doing something: saving faith
1bc) mere acknowledgement of some fact ot event: intellectual faith
2. To entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
1. To be entrusted with a thing
Belief come from within us according to the term used in verse 6 He rewards those who diligently seek Him with salvation by Believing that He is the rewarded of those who diligently seek Him.
Cain failed to follow what God required, simple faith. Faith that a Savior was coming and salvation was not by His works, he needed on to believe and he chose to follow his own way, the Way of Cain.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Um. No. Simply more Finneyist Pelagianism on your part. You cannot see past your hand me down theological presuppositions.
Hand me down from whom? Just reading and finding the Greek definitions. Where does your theology come from? Was it handed down to you too? My Pastor I grew up under taught one very important thing. Never believe anything your taught until you have proven it. That is why I always look at both views with an open mind and have ask the Holy Spirit to guide me to the truth. 1 Thes. 5:21, 1 John 4:1,1, Heb. 5:21.
The "few" are those who want God the rest do not want God and He accommodates them with eternal separation.
How is it the "few" got to be the way they are - wanting God?
Some say God did it to them others say its just the way they are.
There may be another answer - but its unknown IMO.
Whatever the answer God had of necessity to initiate the process as we are the hopeless, helpless and powerless race of Adams loins.
Ephesians 1:11 In whom (Christ) also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
We were and are not privy to this counsel, if we were then this never ending C and A debate would not be happening.
HankD
God has never intended to save all men without exception.
If God did not elect a multitude of sinners in Himself, no one would ever be saved.
God being perfect in all ways is saving all His Sheep.
The flood in Noah's day was not intended to save all men. It was only a means to deliver those 8 souls from the world of the ungodly. God preserved the Godly line by that flood.
Fire and Brimstone was meant to destroy the wicked sodomites, not save them. God preserved just Lot preserving the Godly line.
In the Exodus God delivered Those identified with Moses......the water they passed through was death to the Egyptian soldiers.....it was not meant to save them.God preserved the Godly line.
God we are told is long suffering in our day......not willing that any perish.....
Any of His elect sheep that is....He is seeking and saving everyone of them as He preserves the Godly line.
Methinks, that you emboldened, answers my question: Was Abel, of faith, see Hebrews 11, because he was born that way, ie, predestined, conformed to the image of the Son of God?
He does works, good works because he is, of faith, born that way. Isn't that what James means when he says? 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
I asked the question the other day maybe in this thread, I do not remember. Maybe both our faith and our works are of God.
Never....not one time are we said to be saved...BECAUSE of faith.
It is always by or through faith......NEVER BECAUSE OF FAITH.
Were all eight of those souls saved in the flood of the Godly line? Extended forward, even unto Canaan?
We all belong to the Lord.
Romans 14:
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Both believer and unbeliever belong to the Lord and in the end every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
God shows His grace to all men.
Acts 17:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
God purpose is for ALL MANKIND EVERYWHERE to Repent. Scripture is very clear on that. But because their conscience is seared they reject God and the Great Salvation He offers.
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