Featured Calling All Open-Minded Reformed/Calvinist

I don't believe anything against what Jesus says. Notice Jesus said nothing in that verse about God loving individuals, rather, the world general.

 

LOL almost every post in this thread.

 

No reasonable person assumes world to mean individuals.

 

Could you at least cite your reference?

 

I have a ? or so.

A phrase found in the bible. I copied this one from 1 Peter 1:20 - the foundation of the world (κόσμος)

κόσμος - W&H always translates as, a configuration - Scripture4all always translates as, system

Do the words configuration and system show meaning of, orderly assembled? Would that meaning apply everywhere it is used in the word of God.

Consider as used in 1 Peter 1:20 relative with verses 17,18,19 does it not have the same meaning as John 3:16?

God the Father
Christ the Son - As Peter said Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Foreordained before - For God so loved, he gave ???????????????????????


I wonder what Calvin would have thought of this thought?


Heck, I think it means, the world.

 

Isn't that a contradiction? Unless you haven''t read them.

You still haven't explained your position. Amyraldism, Provisionalism, Catholicism or other? You reject both Armininism and Calvinism.

 

And again, I am not arguing that the word world means elect.

 

Apparently you do not know what a reference is, you did not post the reference for which I asked.

 

Yes.

Respectfully,
I've seen this video several times and while I disagree on some of the finer points of "Reformed Theology", I do agree with much of it, for the most part.

Mr Hunt, while I liked him and respected him as a person, leads off this video believing that God loves everyone, which I do not see in the Bible.
Yes, I do see where several pieces of His word could be taken that way, but not when it's read as a whole.
In addition, I see him misunderstanding, when compared to me, many important truths that are found in God's word...

One of which is that God chooses people to a relationship with Him, and they later believe His words because of that choice... which was made before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ).

I've also read several of his books... and while he seems to make quite a few very persuasive arguments from select pieces of God's word,
it seems that he never did believe other parts of it at face value, I'm sorry to say.
I was also saddened to hear that he passed away several years back, and I believe that the Lord used him to show me many things in the Scriptures, even though I later found myself disagreeing with him on how God actually works salvation in the hearts of His people down through the ages...

He called it "Calvinism", while I see it as the truth.

 

I'm not Reformed, but perhaps I can try to show how I understand it:

" And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Here's what I see when I read this for myself, keeping in mind what the Lord has said in other places in His word:

14) The example is given that as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness ( Numbers 21:5-10 ), so must the Son of man be lifted up on the cross...
15) So that the ones believing "in Him" ( those that are in the body of Christ, or His sheep ) should not perish, but have eternal life ( which is to know God and His Son, John 17:3 ).
Immediately I see a limitation placed upon the reason why Jesus Christ went to the cross...and it was for those that believe.

Right there in the above I see what the "Calvinist" calls, "Limited Atonement" or "Particular Redemption".

Also, Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, and those who refused to look upon it, when struck by the fiery serpents, perished.
Similarly, those of mankind who refuse to "look upon" Christ as their Saviour and Lord, will also perish by fire, in eternal torment.

 

16) The reason that Christ was lifted up in verse 14, was that God so loved ( past tense...how could God love "the world" in the past? See Ephesians 2:1-10, Romans 8:28-30, 2 Timothy 1:9, Matthew 25:34, etc. ) the world that He gave His only begotten Son.
Why?
So that "whosoever believeth in Him" ( the ones believing ) should not perish, but have everlasting life

17) The reason that God sent His Son into the world the first time was not to condemn it ( that comes later when He comes again, see 1 Thessalonians 1:7-10 ), but that the "world" through Him "might" ( signifies purpose ) be saved.

18) The person that believes on Him for the forgiveness of their sins is not ( present tense ) condemned, which tells me that their belief didn't save them, but rather that their lack of condemnation is evidenced by their belief in Him...
While the person that does not believe, is already condemned, and the evidence of that condemnation is the fact that they do not believe.

As for what "world" means here, it's not easy to determine within just the context of this passage, but it can be determined, IMO, by process of elimination:

God loved ( past tense ) a world of people so much, that He gave His Son for them.
They are the "whosoever believeth" in Him because they are associated with one another in the sentence.
"World" = "whosoever believeth" = " shall not perish " = " have eternal life ".

According to verse 18, the one believing is not condemned, but the one that does not is already condemned.
Therefore, the Lord did not love those who are condemned already, because He only sent His Son to die for those who are not, present tense, condemned already.
Condemned versus not condemned, already determined by God.

Follow?
God's love for His people is a love in action and of action.
His elect are the ones not condemned ( but are saved and sanctified by the blood of His Son ) and who evidence that lack of condemnation by their belief in His Son and His work on the cross for them...and they are those that He sent His Son to die for.

I hope that this helps to convey how I understand the passage.


May He bless you in many ways.

 

and this is where you do not understand Calvinism. Calvinists believe in free choice, but you mean something different when you say free choice.

 

Here is how sin entered and corrupted us:
Romans 5:12-14 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.