Calvanism and Hell

BTW, I don't think I ever said that people play no role in their salvation. Their unregenerate will simply isn't the prime or effective cause of their salvation.

The Bible clearly teaches that we must believe, have faith, repent,... Those are roles we must play.

 

Oh come one Wes don't have a fit of modesty now.

On another thread you said that scripture doesn't mean what it literally says when what it literally says doesn't agree with what you believe on this subject.

Here you have said that knowledge produces faith... inescapably that is a process of work to attain information and formulate it into a conclusive action/state of mind- faith. You have said that some are even good enough not to need as much knowledge as others.

You have even acknowledged that salvation is meritorious to the recipient.

Don't get inconsistent now... I wholly reject what you are saying but at least you can claim to be consistent in your reasoning. </font>[/QUOTE]You sound just like a pharisee! Always mocking the truth! </font>[/QUOTE]You have yet to speak the truth.

In fact, you have gone to great lengths to avoid the truth... even to the point of denying that scripture means what it says and words mean what they mean.

Seems that I remember that Jesus mocked the Pharisees for placing authority in themselves over what God literally said in the scriptures. He even called them names like vipers.

I question you for being inconsistent and unwilling to give a real answer to a simple question and you don't like it.

You finally seem to give something close to real answers and I give you credit for it... and you don't like it.

Wes, Maybe the problems is that your position really is inconsistent and it hurts every time it smacks up against its own fallacies. </font>[/QUOTE]You're from Missouri so you should know what I mean by HOGWASH!

 

Sure do. Recognize it virtually every time you post.

.... Don't blame me, you tossed that softball up there for me.

 

LIAR! That is exactly what you are doing!

 

Then WHY don't you acknowledge that is what I am saying, you antagonizer! We must have faith!

Faith is based on Knowledge. God tells us "for lack of knowledge my people perish". So we gain knowledge of God from his wonderful gift, THE WORD OF GOD, and we believe what it says and we have faith in "who" the knowledge is about, and that one we have faith in SAVES us!

The condensed Gospel!

You don't acknowledge it because I am opposed to your calvinism!

 

You don't acknowledge it because I am opposed to your calvinism!
************************************************

Sorry but, that is just too laughable.

 

wes...read and understand...

KJV
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

RSV
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification


Darby..
15 But [shall] not the act of favour [be] as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which [is] by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many. 16 And [shall] not as by one that has sinned [be] the gift? For the judgment [was] of one to condemnation, but the act of favour, of many offences unto justification.


Gods grace comes with a gift. so when we get grace..we get a gift.

understand?
we are lost..and have no faith in God....how are we then saved?

salvation (the gift)..comes with GRACE(Gods own unmerited favor)..and comes though FAITH.(our trust in God)....that we get from understand(that the holy spirit gave us)......after we only after heard...(the gospel)


notice hearing is only the beginning. we can not do anything..till we hear.

but then we must have the rest for salvation.

remove the holy spirit..and it does not work.

remove faith..and it does not work.

remove grace..and it does not work.

add the holy spirit...and it all happens

got it?

 

LIAR! That is exactly what you are doing! </font>[/QUOTE]Who do you think said this?

Andre said it and as far as I know he hasn't provoked you to call him a liar.

For that matter, neither have I.

 

Then WHY don't you acknowledge that is what I am saying, you antagonizer! We must have faith! </font>[/QUOTE] Because it isn't what you are saying... and I have told you these things before. You still find disagreement with me because you make man the key to his own salvation's cause.

And you still haven't answered why that knowledge and much more can be shared with one individual who rejects it but much less can be shared to another who accepts it with joy.

BTW, who gave you the ability to "know" anything? Where did your innate sense to reason come from? Did you choose it or did God ordain it to you?

I don't acknowledge your answers because they don't address the questions sufficiently... and because they are opposed to what the Bible says.

 

My apology, I saw your name on it so I grabbed it because that describes exactly like what you do!

I give credit to Andre for being a liar too!

 

Being accused by you like this here is almost a medal of honor.

You reject the authority of scripture, reject logic, refuse to answer direct questions directly, misuse scripture, distort the views of others, and even refuse to accept the meanings of words... your views are the standard by which you judge things, others, and other opinions... and because we disagree with you, we are the "LIAR".

No problem. Considering the views and spirit you have expressd here, I would much rather be this much your opposite if what you say and do are "truth".

 

What? Now I am really confused. Gotta go for now, but I hope to follow up on this.....

 

Wes,

You once again are completely out of line. Calling people liars is unacceptable and you have previously been warned. You have to learn to control your emotions and your temper. Continued failure will lead to your suspension.

Larry

 

Calvinism lives in the realm of circular reasoning that tries to deny that it rejects choice WHILE it rejects choice. It says that those with NO choice have the choice to DO only that which enslaves them - the will of sin.

(See Romans 6 and Eph 2:1-5 for an example of what it means to be ENSLAVED to the will of sin, satan and rebellion against God).

Calvinists themselves will sometimes bend their own argument around a pole to the point of calling that "slavery" -- "Choice".

But God provides REAL choice (not merely some marketing gimmick and a kind of laywereeze fake choice). God DRAWS ALL mankind (John 12:32) and IN that drawing (supernatural drawing) ENABLES the choice to accept eternal life that depravity disables.

It does not ENABLE the choice to be sinless or selfless -- but it ENABLES the choice to respond to the Holy Spirit and be born again. That NEW CREATION then is the selfless being that can be IN fellowship with God. However that new nature must live in you along with your old nature - your sinful nature - and hence the ongoing battle of Romans 7.

In Christ,

Bob

 

If Arminians could only explain two things perhaps they could convince someone they are correct.

1st: Why do some respond to the offer of salvation while others do not?

2nd: How does the following Scripture conform to their doctrine? [I can't call it theology.]

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

We did this yesterday!

As for the first question.... free will. Some men yield to the drawing of the Holy Spirit and some refuse.

 

For Old Regular

http://www.lvggc.com/pdf-pamphlets/TULIP-response.pdf

It's 34 pages long.

 

We did this yesterday!

</font>[/QUOTE]Your explanation sounded more Calvinistic than Arminian to me, i.e, the natural man is the unregenerate man.

posted by dianetavegia on July 28, 2005 04:54 PM

 

WHY O WHY?

 

Thanks! I read part, will read the remainder at my leisure.

I have stated elsewhere on this Forum that rather than discussing TULIP, or for that matter Calvinism since it is too frequently used in a perjorative sense, we should be discussing the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation.