Calvanism and Hell

We should begin by taking "belief" out of it and talking about hte objective revelation God has given. You continually want to put this in the realm of man's mind by saying things like "rock solid intuition," "unintelligible," "belief," etc. We should rather deal in the realm of God's revelation.

Now there are several problems with your statements.

[qutoe] They will sin by necessity - no amount of "free will" effort can possibly prevent them from sinning.[/quote]Their free will is why they sin. They don't will to do anything else.

Foreknowledge is God' gracious choice biblically. Howevwer, even if we were to emasculate the term and make it simply knowing something ahead of time, you gain nothing. Because God's knowledge is perfect and eternal, no one can do anything other than what God foreknows they will do. Let's use Fred for an example. From eternity past, God knew Fred would reject Christ and go to hell. Fred can now do nothing different. He cannot accept Christ because God's knowledge would then be wrong. Either way, the "free will" you guys are looking for doeesn't exist, except in open theism.

Again, a major error. Fred's belief system does absolutely nothing. Fred's belief is irrelevant. It is God's revelation about reality that is relevant. God makes it clear that those who go to hell do so of their own accord and their own choice. God does not force them there.

Yes, they do. But they freely choose not to, because of their sinful hearts. Their hearts deceive them into rejecting Christ.

 

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Wes says:
"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God".
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Scott J says:
Round and round we go. You use the same wrong arguments without ever correcting them.

IF... this is referring to physical hearing and is in fact a cause-effect relationship then all who physically hear the Word of God will get faith.

IF... on the other hand, this is a reference to spiritual hearing then only those who God cures of their deaf ears will hear and have faith.

Even your own scripture citation doesn't introduce your choice into the equation until after the Word is heard... Who controls who hears the Word whether spiritually or physically?

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Wes,
How many people have to tell you this before you UNDERSTAND?

 

The Nature of Salvation is that God saves, but he saves ONLY those who possess faith in Him!

Faith in Him comes from hearing his word.

So are you saying that part of the bible does not apply to man's salvation?

Not any more than breathing! Without breathing there is no life! So in the sense that you are applying the term "work", Yes deciding among options, or arriving at a belief, is work but it is not a prohibited by God for man's salvation and indeed is required for man to be saved, JUST LIKE BREATHING is required for man to have life.

Salvation is meritorious to the one who receives it. However the choice is not one of salvation, it is one of faith. So choosing to have faith is meaningless, except that having faith is what is required in man for God to save the man.

FAITH COMETH BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD!. The Word of God is the source of Knowledge of God. God's word TELLS US that God says, FOR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE MY PEOPLE PERISH. Who perishes? Those who do not have faith that comes from knowledge.

A college degree makes a person "better", why is that? Because that person is reputed to have more KNOWLEDGE, and for most humans it's what you know that you get paid for. The more you know the greater your pay. Those who lack knowledge cannot get work! SAME PRINCIPLE!

Take off your Calvinist blinders so you can see the truth!

Breathing is necessary for life, life is necessary for faith, Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, Faith is necessary for eternal life! Get the picture. God gave us his Word, God does not make us "hear his word", But for those who do, faith in God is the result, which in itself has a greater result called eternal life through God's salvation.

Assuming you are focusing on Knowledge of God, it depends on THE KNOWLEDGE! Knowledge of God is Knowledge of God, and the measure of one's knowledge of God that brings faith is dependent entirely upon what it takes the person with the knowledge to be persuaded INTO FAITH. For some John 3:16 is more than adequate, while for others, the entire bible seems lacking in sufficient knowledge to persuade them. Those are called SKEPTICS!

Assuming again that you are focused on knowledge of God, it comes by hearing and hearing by THE WORD OF GOD!

I did not use the term "good". God recognizes that an individual has faith in HIM, and as promised, God saves that person.

Speak for yourself Lone Ranger, there is no good in me worthy of God's salvation!

Not a reference to eternal salvation.</font>[/QUOTE]NO? What then does "perish" mean? Is it not the opposite of "salvation"? If one does not get saved, one perishes!

FAITH COMETH BY HEARING (dictionary 1 and 2) AND HEARING (dictionary 7, thesaurus 2 and 3) BY THE WORD OF GOD.

DEAF EARS? God created man with good ears, sin did not make those ears deaf. The scriptures tell us that man's spirit was separated from God's spirit by sin. That means that man was no longer "directly connected" to, did not have direct access to, God. It does not mean that man suddenly became deaf. NOT EVEN SPIRITUALLY DEAF!

If man had become spiritually deaf, man could not have "LISTENED" to evil spirits either! then man could not have become "totally depraved" either. Care to rethink about man's abilities you purveyer of bad news?

 

In other words, God recognizes the merit of a person's decision and saves them based on that merit, right?

That is really all you had to say rather than going into that protracted, incoherent spin again.

You are wrong biblically of course since the Bible says that we are saved by grace... unmerited favor. But an honest, direct answer even if wrong is always to be favored over denial and evasion.

 

BTW, Wes, Look back over your own writings and see how badly you spun all around the question without ever answering. You said that faith comes by hearing the Word of God then could not give a reasonable answer to why some with equal or even more knowledge aren't saved.

 

IOW's, some people are saved because they are better than other people. That is the direct result of your spin above. Good people don't require too much knowledge but the worse someone is all the way up to those who reject Christ altogether the more knowledge it takes to create faith in them.

BTW, Where did that knowledge come from and by whose will did the person get it?

 

In other words, God recognizes the merit of a person's decision and saves them based on that merit, right?

That is really all you had to say rather than going into that protracted, incoherent spin again.

You are wrong biblically of course since the Bible says that we are saved by grace... unmerited favor. But an honest, direct answer even if wrong is always to be favored over denial and evasion. </font>[/QUOTE]PROVE THAT GRACE HAS THE ABILITY AND THE POWER TO SAVE and you win!

 

Oh come one Wes don't have a fit of modesty now.

On another thread you said that scripture doesn't mean what it literally says when what it literally says doesn't agree with what you believe on this subject.

Here you have said that knowledge produces faith... inescapably that is a process of work to attain information and formulate it into a conclusive action/state of mind- faith. You have said that some are even good enough not to need as much knowledge as others.

You have even acknowledged that salvation is meritorious to the recipient.

Don't get inconsistent now... I wholly reject what you are saying but at least you can claim to be consistent in your reasoning.

 

In other words, God recognizes the merit of a person's decision and saves them based on that merit, right?

That is really all you had to say rather than going into that protracted, incoherent spin again.

You are wrong biblically of course since the Bible says that we are saved by grace... unmerited favor. But an honest, direct answer even if wrong is always to be favored over denial and evasion. </font>[/QUOTE]PROVE THAT GRACE HAS THE ABILITY AND THE POWER TO SAVE and you win! </font>[/QUOTE]Grace is defined as "unmerited favor". It is something that God exhibits toward men. We are saved by God's unmerited favor toward us through (not because of) faith. Grace is the cause, faith is the means, salvation is the result.

 

Rather than answer your whole ridiculous argument apparently against the fact that there is such a thing as spiritual hearing and sight (spiritual discernment), I will simply ask:

What did Jesus mean when He said: He who hath ears to hear, let him hear...?

Hint: He wasn't saying that His words only had relevance to people who weren't deaf.

 

Here's some help

NOW identify which definition of Grace you want to use in providing proof that Grace saves!

 

He was saying, Let those who ARE WILLING TO HEAR, HEAR.

 

Oh come one Wes don't have a fit of modesty now.

On another thread you said that scripture doesn't mean what it literally says when what it literally says doesn't agree with what you believe on this subject.

Here you have said that knowledge produces faith... inescapably that is a process of work to attain information and formulate it into a conclusive action/state of mind- faith. You have said that some are even good enough not to need as much knowledge as others.

You have even acknowledged that salvation is meritorious to the recipient.

Don't get inconsistent now... I wholly reject what you are saying but at least you can claim to be consistent in your reasoning. </font>[/QUOTE]You sound just like a pharisee! Always mocking the truth!

 

Wes...give the "only i understand grace" drum a rest. Have you not beat that drum to death?

try to find a new point..
every one on this board has been around with you on this...so give it up. or take a week break...something.

just a idea

 

Really?

Why did't He say that or at least imply it?

 

Wes,
You simply are not HEARING.
Ooops, I mean UNDERSTANDING.

 

Oh come one Wes don't have a fit of modesty now.

On another thread you said that scripture doesn't mean what it literally says when what it literally says doesn't agree with what you believe on this subject.

Here you have said that knowledge produces faith... inescapably that is a process of work to attain information and formulate it into a conclusive action/state of mind- faith. You have said that some are even good enough not to need as much knowledge as others.

You have even acknowledged that salvation is meritorious to the recipient.

Don't get inconsistent now... I wholly reject what you are saying but at least you can claim to be consistent in your reasoning. </font>[/QUOTE]You sound just like a pharisee! Always mocking the truth! </font>[/QUOTE]You have yet to speak the truth.

In fact, you have gone to great lengths to avoid the truth... even to the point of denying that scripture means what it says and words mean what they mean.

Seems that I remember that Jesus mocked the Pharisees for placing authority in themselves over what God literally said in the scriptures. He even called them names like vipers.

I question you for being inconsistent and unwilling to give a real answer to a simple question and you don't like it.

You finally seem to give something close to real answers and I give you credit for it... and you don't like it.

Wes, Maybe the problems is that your position really is inconsistent and it hurts every time it smacks up against its own fallacies.

 

NOW identify which definition of Grace you want to use in providing proof that Grace saves! </font>[/QUOTE]Obviously 9a and 9d.

 

Hello Scott J:

I do not deny that the act of receiving salvation is a "meritorious" act - that in a small way we contribute to our own salvation. Based on interactions with others, you may presume that I want to have it "both ways" - that I want to play the intellectually dishonest game of saying its all grace and that our "acceptance" doesn't count as an act that signfies merit on our part. This is precisely the kind of thinking I will not engage in.

I fully and clearly "confess" that people, by virtue of "free will" acceptance of the salvation that God offers, do play a very limited role in effecting their salvation. And while I suspect you will disagree, I do think such a position is entirely consistent with the scriptures. Stated somewhat crudely, God does 99.9 % of the work, man does 0.1 %. I see this as substantively equivalent to salvation by grace.

 

You already did and obviously see the problem. If salvation is because of our merit then it is not because of God's grace. Those are mutually exclusive things.

I am not condemning you. In fact, I praise you for being honest that far and encourage you to continue to meditate on it.

I hate to sound argumentative because you seem like a pretty good fellow but that position is not consistent with the scriptures... How did you foreknow that?