The context of that scripture is the letters to the 7 churches... not individual salvation. While it may or may not provide an illustration, it is hardly the basis for a doctrinal argument concerning the nature of salvation.
The Nature of Salvation is that God saves, but he saves ONLY those who possess faith in Him!
Faith in Him comes from hearing his word.
So are you saying that part of the bible does not apply to man's salvation?
Choosing between options is work in any sense of the term. Deny all you want but mental processes that move one from input to a conclusion is work.
Not any more than breathing! Without breathing there is no life! So in the sense that you are applying the term "work", Yes deciding among options, or arriving at a belief, is work but it is not a prohibited by God for man's salvation and indeed is required for man to be saved, JUST LIKE BREATHING is required for man to have life.
Even if one agrees with you- if you get paid for the results of your choice then that choice has merit.
Salvation is meritorious to the one who receives it. However the choice is not one of salvation, it is one of faith. So choosing to have faith is meaningless, except that having faith is what is required in man for God to save the man.
Where does that faith come from Wes? Why do some believe while others don't? Are they better?
FAITH COMETH BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD!. The Word of God is the source of Knowledge of God. God's word TELLS US that God says, FOR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE MY PEOPLE PERISH. Who perishes? Those who do not have faith that comes from knowledge.
A college degree makes a person "better", why is that? Because that person is reputed to have more KNOWLEDGE, and for most humans it's what you know that you get paid for. The more you know the greater your pay. Those who lack knowledge cannot get work! SAME PRINCIPLE!
Take off your Calvinist blinders so you can see the truth!
Breathing is by definition work.
Breathing is necessary for life, life is necessary for faith, Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, Faith is necessary for eternal life! Get the picture. God gave us his Word, God does not make us "hear his word", But for those who do, faith in God is the result, which in itself has a greater result called eternal life through God's salvation.
Nope. Won't work. If that were true just as you have stated it then someone with equal or greater knowledge would always believe and have faith.
Assuming you are focusing on Knowledge of God, it depends on THE KNOWLEDGE! Knowledge of God is Knowledge of God, and the measure of one's knowledge of God that brings faith is dependent entirely upon what it takes the person with the knowledge to be persuaded INTO FAITH. For some John 3:16 is more than adequate, while for others, the entire bible seems lacking in sufficient knowledge to persuade them. Those are called SKEPTICS!
BTW, you just changed from one non-answer to another. Where does this "knowledge" come from?
Assuming again that you are focused on knowledge of God, it comes by hearing and hearing by THE WORD OF GOD!
So? What are you saying? That believers are saved because God recognizes their "good" faith?
I did not use the term "good". God recognizes that an individual has faith in HIM, and as promised, God saves that person.
Why? Aren't they as good as you and me?
Speak for yourself Lone Ranger, there is no good in me worthy of God's salvation!
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God tells us "For lack of knowledge my people perish".
Not a reference to eternal salvation.</font>[/QUOTE]NO? What then does "perish" mean? Is it not the opposite of "salvation"? If one does not get saved, one perishes!
Round and round we go. You use the same wrong arguments without ever correcting them.
IF... this is referring to physical hearing and is in fact a cause-effect relationship then all who physically hear the Word of God will get faith.
IF... on the other hand, this is a reference to spiritual hearing then only those who God cures of their deaf ears will hear and have faith.
Even your own scripture citation doesn't introduce your choice into the equation until after the Word is heard... Who controls who hears the Word whether spiritually or physically?
FAITH COMETH BY HEARING (dictionary 1 and 2) AND HEARING (dictionary 7, thesaurus 2 and 3) BY THE WORD OF GOD.
Dictionary:
hear, v., heard (hûrd) , hearing — v.t.
1. to perceive by the ear: to hear noises.
2. to learn by the ear or by being told; be informed of: to hear news.
3. to listen to; give or pay attention to.
4. to be among the audience at or of (something) : to hear a recital.
5. to give a formal, official, or judicial hearing to (something) ; consider officially, as a judge, sovereign, teacher, or assembly: to hear a case.
6. to take or listen to the evidence or testimony of (someone) : to hear the defendant.
7. to listen to with favor, assent, or compliance.
— v.i.
8. to be capable of perceiving sound by the ear; have the faculty of perceiving sound vibrations.
9. to receive information by the ear or otherwise: to hear from a friend.
10. to listen with favor, assent, or compliance (often fol. by of ) : I will not hear of your going.
11. (used interjectionally in the phrase Hear! Hear! to express approval, as of a speech.)
Thesaurus
hear,v.
1. A large audience heard the concert last night: listen to, be among the listeners at, be present at, be a spectator at, appear at, attend, witness, look on, be an auditor at.
2. I hear that you're moving to France: understand, find out, be informed, be told, receive news, be led to believe, be made aware of, receive information, learn, gather, discover, ascertain; receive a letter; receive a phone call; Slang hear tell, get an earful.
3. Hear our plea, O Lord!: listen to, heed, favor, approve, receive, hearken to, accede to, hold with, grant, admit, acknowledge; concede, acquiesce, give assent, be favorably disposed to.
4. The judge will hear the case next month: judge, try: officially investigate, examine, inquire into.
— Antonyms 3 ignore, reject, disapprove, disagree with.
DEAF EARS? God created man with good ears, sin did not make those ears deaf. The scriptures tell us that man's spirit was separated from God's spirit by sin. That means that man was no longer "directly connected" to, did not have direct access to, God. It does not mean that man suddenly became deaf. NOT EVEN SPIRITUALLY DEAF!
If man had become spiritually deaf, man could not have "LISTENED" to evil spirits either! then man could not have become "totally depraved" either. Care to rethink about man's abilities you purveyer of bad news?
