Calvanism Application

[Thinkingstuff]

Per Jarthur001 request on Sandbagging Theology thread I'm starting this new thread specifically questioning Calvanism and its applicability. The discussion which lead to this new thread:

Ultimately does that mean God is ultimately responsible for those he did not choose? Is it really fair to punish someone for eterninty that you've set up?

My statement of faith answers that question already.

You're statement (on your profile) has three alones none explaining your answer. Grace (You're saved by God's grace which begs the question put forward); Christ (by christ redemptive work which doesn't answer the question); faith (throughour faith in Christ which doesn't answer the question).

Starting from the begining. God elected those that are saved. There is distinguishing one group of people from another. That to distinguish such necissarily condemns one set. Before they are even born. From what we understand of justice is that right? You could say God is the creator and can do what he wants which just means that he is an unfair tyrant picking out the "teachers' pets" and torturing the rest of humanity. Does man truely have a free will? Then and is God not ultimately responsible for his choices not ours? And doesn't this conflict with the verse which states that God desires that all men be saved? (again this isn't my personal believe but my attempt to attack the question from a coworkers perspective.)

I know this was addressed to another, but I would like to reply. However, I do not wish to change the subject of this thread. Please start a new thread or even two threads, and ask for better understanding of Calvinism.

 

[Jarthur001]

Per Jarthur001 request on Sandbagging Theology thread I'm starting this new thread specifically questioning Calvanism and its applicability. The discussion which lead to this new thread:

Starting from the begining. God elected those that are saved.

Yes...

It is Gods choice. I wrote on this a few years ago...

INTRODUCTION TO ELECTION
Election 1

Some false views of Election examined and refuted
Election 2

Disarming some prejudice
Election 3

Election: A few Applications
Election 4

There is distinguishing one group of people from another.

The word Saint means.."set apart one"

That to distinguish such necissarily condemns one set.

All are condemn. God elects so that some from every nation will be saved from being condemned.

Before they are even born.

indeed.

From what we understand of justice is that right?

Yes. ALL are dead in their sins and remain on their way to Hell.

Our view of election is just like what Arminians allow in human governor. All can see that a governor, by pardoning some men, does not harm others, who are not pardoned. Those who are not pardoned are not in prison because the governor refused them a pardon but because they were guilty of a crime against the state. To remove the pardon power of God, would be to place a governor of a state with more power than God. Salvation, like a pardon, is something that is not deserved.

You could say God is the creator and can do what he wants which just means that he is an unfair tyrant picking out the "teachers' pets" and torturing the rest of humanity.

Teachers pets means there is something good in the person that the teacher sees and likes. There is nothing good in man, even those that have been elect by God that causes him to chose.

With election in place, it is hard to call God a unfair tyrant. If God killed all of manking from day one, God would be just in doing so. Grace is given by God in more than one area. For a person to have life, means he has Gods grace. For a person to have rain fall on their plants means God's grace was there. At the same time God placed in all man the desire to worship. This desire is Gods grace that SHOULD pull him to the real God. God has planted the law on mans heart...which is grace. All of these things and more should pull man to God, but sin rules mans heart.

Therefore...God shows his grace in election.

Does man truely have a free will?

A will yes. Free will no. Mans will is controlled by sin.

Then and is God not ultimately responsible for his choices not ours?

Not at all. God knew Adam would sin. God placed the tree there. God allowed Satan to be there. Still, it was Mans choice. Now one maybe...maybe...just maybe able to build a small case about God being unfair if God stacked the deck against man. In other words...if God said..you can do these 10 things and these 10 things alone. All the other 100,000,000 or so other things you cannot do.

But God said...DO ANYTHING YOU WANT>>>>but one small thing. Just one. That's it. Adam still blow it. I think that is more than fair.

And doesn't this conflict with the verse which states that God desires that all men be saved?

Not at all, when you read them in context and understand all of grace.

(again this isn't my personal believe but my attempt to attack the question from a coworkers perspective.)

good deal.

 

[annsni]

The issue is not that God chooses some to condemnation - we are ALL condemned my virtue of being human. All humans are guilty and deserve hell. God is choosing to save some for His glory.

 

[Amy.G]

The issue is not that God chooses some to condemnation - we are ALL condemned my virtue of being human. All humans are guilty and deserve hell. God is choosing to save some for His glory.

Why doesn't He choose to save all then? Wouldn't that be more glorious than saving some?

 

[Jarthur001]

Why doesn't He choose to save all then? Wouldn't that be more glorious than saving some?

To show his love.

 

[annsni]

Why doesn't He choose to save all then? Wouldn't that be more glorious than saving some?

Would it? .....

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Those who are not pardoned are not in prison because the governor refused them a pardon but because they were guilty of a crime against the state.

However, you state:

God knew Adam would sin. God placed the tree there. God allowed Satan to be there.

Sounds like what our legal system calls entrapment.

. If God killed all of manking from day one, God would be just in doing so.

And by Man you mean Adam. In which case, God would be just (though the entrapment issue is still outstanding) punishing Adam but instead he lets Adam propigate and places each of his decendents under the same judgement even though it wasn't by their choice. They are guilty by association. And now they can't even choose!

A will yes. Free will no. Mans will is controlled by sin

So God wasn't satisfied by condemning one man but billions to eternal torment for the choice of one man! What does that say about God? Sounds like a narsicistic, vengful, meglomaniac egotist. But that's ok because God chose a few to go to Heaven (and they don't really have a choice in this matter either). Doesn't make sense. He sets up billions of people to suffer for all eternity that some (couple million maybe) might get to hang out with him singing his praise and telling God how good he is by selecting them and suffering temporarily so that he could have satisfied his judgement which was caused by an entrapment scheme.

Also you said

Teachers pets means there is something good in the person that the teacher sees and likes. There is nothing good in man, even those that have been elect by God that causes him to chose.

But Doesn't your theology state that God is good and that man is made in his image so there is something good. However, God saves man because man is made in his image but cannot do the same things for angels because they're nothing like him? Kind of fitting in God's motif of being a Narcisist.

 

[annsni]

However, you state: Sounds like what our legal system calls entrapment.

And by Man you mean Adam. In which case, God would be just (though the entrapment issue is still outstanding) punishing Adam but instead he lets Adam propigate and places each of his decendents under the same judgement even though it wasn't by their choice. They are guilty by association. And now they can't even choose! So God wasn't satisfied by condemning one man but billions to eternal torment for the choice of one man! What does that say about God? Sounds like a narsicistic, vengful, meglomaniac egotist. But that's ok because God chose a few to go to Heaven (and they don't really have a choice in this matter either). Doesn't make sense. He sets up billions of people to suffer for all eternity that some (couple million maybe) might get to hang out with him singing his praise and telling God how good he is by selecting them and suffering temporarily so that he could have satisfied his judgement which was caused by an entrapment scheme.

Also you said But Doesn't your theology state that God is good and that man is made in his image so there is something good. However, God saves man because man is made in his image but cannot do the same things for angels because they're nothing like him? Kind of fitting in God's motif of being a Narcisist.

But you are arguing with Scripture. Take it up with God if you don't like the way things went down.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

But you are arguing with Scripture. Take it up with God if you don't like the way things went down.

That's how you would witness to an unsaved person? Wow.

 

[Me4Him]

So show his love.

But God "LOVED" the whole world and Jesus died for the sins of the whole that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved.

So how come this "LOVE" turned into "condemnation" for some???

Lying isn't the only thing that is impossible for God, so is "programing/ordaining/predestine" some one to "LOVE GOD".

The very "Nature of Love" prevent that, just as God has a "FREE WILL" to chose whom he will love, so does mankind made in God's image.

Pr 8:17 I love them that love me;

Love is a commandment which we can keep/break, for the simple reason that God can't "program/predestine" anyone to love him,

Love can only exist as a "free will expression" of the person, or God.

One third of the angels chose to follow Satan, so on/in the New Heaven/Earth, neither man/angel will be there who hasn't made this choice to "love God".

"Love" is at the "Heart" of the plan of salvation.

 

[Amy.G]

To show his love.

His love for those He didn't chose?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

His love for those He didn't chose?

To show His mercy and special love for His elect.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Why doesn't He choose to save all then? Wouldn't that be more glorious than saving some?

Obviously not. If God is in pursuit of his own glory (as he declares), and if that had been more glorious, that is what he would have done. Since he didn't, we know that is it not more glorious.

I think your question is the result of trying to put God in a box of our own thinking, assuming he must do certain things because we think he should.

 

[Amy.G]

To show His mercy and special love for His elect.

I agree that God has special love for His elect. I just disagree with the Calvinist's definition of elect.

 

[Pastor Larry]

So how come this "LOVE" turned into "condemnation" for some???

It wasn't.

Lying isn't the only thing that is impossible for God, so is "programing/ordaining/predestine" some one to "LOVE GOD".

On what scriptural basis do you say this is impossible for God?

The very "Nature of Love" prevent that

How do we know what love is? By what standard have you defined the "nature" of love?

 

[Pastor Larry]

I just disagree with the Calvinist's definition of elect.

How do you define elect, based on the Scripture?

 

[Jarthur001]

However, you state: Sounds like what our legal system calls entrapment.

And by Man you mean Adam. In which case, God would be just (though the entrapment issue is still outstanding) punishing Adam but instead he lets Adam propigate and places each of his decendents under the same judgement even though it wasn't by their choice. They are guilty by association. And now they can't even choose! So God wasn't satisfied by condemning one man but billions to eternal torment for the choice of one man! What does that say about God? Sounds like a narsicistic, vengful, meglomaniac egotist. But that's ok because God chose a few to go to Heaven (and they don't really have a choice in this matter either). Doesn't make sense. He sets up billions of people to suffer for all eternity that some (couple million maybe) might get to hang out with him singing his praise and telling God how good he is by selecting them and suffering temporarily so that he could have satisfied his judgement which was caused by an entrapment scheme.

Also you said But Doesn't your theology state that God is good and that man is made in his image so there is something good. However, God saves man because man is made in his image but cannot do the same things for angels because they're nothing like him? Kind of fitting in God's motif of being a Narcisist.

Before I answer, i want to as...what do you believe? The reason why I ask now, is that I seem to be seeing something over the last two threads we need to address before we go on.

Please state your doctrine of salvation to which you hold.

 

[Amy.G]

How do you define elect, based on the Scripture?

All those who have placed their faith in Christ. We are elect "in Christ".

God chose before the foundation of the world to elect those who believed.

I do not believe, nor see anywhere in scripture that God arbitrarily chose some (with no basis or purpose) to be saved.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

All those who have placed their faith in Christ. We are elect "in Christ".

God chose before the foundation of the world to elect those who believed.

I do not believe, nor see anywhere in scripture that God arbitrarily chose some (with no basis or purpose) to be saved.

See Amy, when I read this, and I am glad Pastor Larry asked the question, it leads me to believe that you have misunderstood the reformed explaination of election. I don't believe for one minute that your trying to misrepresent the calvinist view, it just seems to me that you may not have caught a key point.

The difference I see in my view on this subject, and yours, is not that one is arbitrary and the other is not. It is that your more Arminian view puts God's choice based on man's action (belief/faith foreseen), and my view based on God's own will, pleasure and good purpose. And there is nothing arbitrary about God's will!!! The Father does all things well and good for the manifestation of His own glory. And that is not baseless or purposeless!

God bless,
RB

 

[Pastor Larry]

All those who have placed their faith in Christ. We are elect "in Christ".

God chose before the foundation of the world to elect those who believed.

Perhaps I was unclear. I was asking for the scriptural basis. What Scripture would you cite that teaches this?

I do not believe, nor see anywhere in scripture that God arbitrarily chose some (with no basis or purpose) to be saved.

I agree. I imagine most Calvinists would.