Thinkingstuff
Active Member
If he has no choice but to want to murder.
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Calvanism Application
- Thread starter Thinkingstuff
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So why do you object that someone does what they want to do? Shouldn't they be allowed to do that? Isn't that only fair?
(And why didn't you answer the other questions?)
Jarthur001
Active Member
If only he had made us slaves....or as some non-Calvinist say...robots....that would be much better.
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In Sin did my mother conceive me
You should be thankful that God did it this way.
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Is that not great?
Yes. Well...not that alone. You are guilty twofold. Sin nature and the very sins you express.
I can't blame you, but God can. The fight is all over the will. Man wants his will, but sin is not doing Gods will. Satan fall into sin saying...I will...I will.....I will. Adam wanted his will over Gods will. You too, (not you but your friend) wants your will. You demand it!! You have your right. Somethings never change.
he did know he would sin.
indeed.
Who said this? No atheist would say it. maybe it was another friend of yours. At any rate, the Bible does not say it was the 1st day.
Not at all. God had two choices. Make man a robot where he would only do as he said.....or let man do anything he wanted, save for one thing, which kept God above man. I think it was more than fair.
But it is. You do the math. or I mean...tell your friend to do the math.
As God knew your dud would say.
Romans 9..
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me,......... Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Hebrews 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
The godfather can't even come close to God and his might.
And you still(not you but your bud) hang on to entrapment, even with the numbers not on your side. But non- God believers will do this for they are blind and don't understand the gospel of god.
Not at all. You are now playing God which is what all sinners want to do.
Again, a choice is before them each day. People love sin more than they love God. It has to do with the nature which they have.
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Being that you know what election is, you can tell your bud how wrong this view is. Not sure why you asked, if you believe as you said.
Again..I see not why you would ask this even in play, being that you say you know and understand what election and is. Just tell your bud how election and total depravity works and why God must elect.
Why? Do you not believe in justice?
yes.
Cause that is the point of love. If I claim I love all ladies as I do my wife...would she feel loved? Hello?? This is just to easy to not think about.
You are free to think as you wish, which only proves you want your way over Gods way. I'll stick with the Bible.
pleasure
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There's a difference between doing something you want to do and doing something because you can do nothing else.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
But if you don't want to do anything else, what's wrong with that?
I am a man. I can't be anything else. But I am not troubled by that because I don't want to. So what is the difficulty?
Perhaps you overlooked it, but I responded to your post of several pages ago (now) about the Scriptural basis for your belief. You stated some things about election, but did not list any verses in support. Would you mind giving us what you believe to be the biblical basis for your belief about election?
Sorry Pastor. There's been a lot of posting going on today and it slipped my mind. I'll be right back with your answer.
Assuming that is so, what is the problem with that?
Because why?
Do you complain that you are given Jesus' righteousness though you weren't actually righteous like you do about having Adam's sin though you didn't actually commit it?
Are you troubled by the unfairness of Jesus dying for you?
Why is it wrong to lock someone up for a crime that they committed?
Jarthur001
Active Member
I'm talking about on here..
Where all can read you words. Do you have such post? I'm sure you do, I have just not read them.
Here it Pastor Larry.
Eph. 1
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph. 1
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Hmmm. Calvin did say
So beyond this there is no explination? I think that Calvin based his whole theology on the ancient consept of (from the greek philosophers) the first cause. Everything else in his treaties of The Institutes fall around this consept especially when you look at free will which sometimes seems dangerously close to the Stoic's "nature bound faste in fate". I have to change my tone here because though I'm putting foreward ideas I've argued against at work and elsewhere I don't want to give the impression I secretly agree with them. I don't. So I'll stick with discussing Calvinism (don't want reformed baptist to leave :laugh
.Romans 9:
19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Because you have completely removed free will. If I am able to do only one thing, then I don't have a choice or a free will do I?
Yet you would hold me accountable for disobeying that which I was unable to obey.
Previously you said, " God chose before the foundation of the world to elect those who believed." I don't see anything in these verses that say he chose to elect those who believed. I don't even see belief in these verses. Can you explain why you think this verse teaches that God elects those who believe?
But if that one thing was what I wanted to do, why would it matter?
But let's take it a step further. When we talk about the lack of free will, I think it is a bit misleading. Not even God has free will the way some define it in this conversation because there are things that God cannot do.
Man's inability (or lack of free will) is not a natural inability but a moral one. In other words, he can choose not to murder, not to lie, not to covet, not to lust, etc. He simply chooses not to because of his moral state as a sinner before God.
I wouldn't; God would. But even at that, you willfully chose to disobey. You are not forced to.
But if that's all you can do, then you are in sense forced to. I agree that man will please himself most of the time. It's in our nature to do so. But God did not leave us helpless and hopeless. He reveals Himself to all people. We are able to reach out. Where there is no choice, there is no love. You cannot define love as having no choice.
Let's say I was born with no legs and God commanded me to walk, then punished me because I was unable to. "Want to" has nothing to do with it. I can't walk without legs. That is the picture you are painting of God.
But if it's what you want to do, why does it matter? (Perhaps I am not being clear about the question.)
I think we all agree on that.
Why? What biblical definition of love says this? Please show us this from Scripture.
First, what if you don't want to walk? Why does it matter?
Second, I don't think that is the picture I am painting at all. I think it is much worse than that. We aren't born without legs. We are born without life. And God graciously gives us life.
Again, I have to question the scriptural basis for what you saying here.
I think a better analogy is what someone here on BB said a few weeks ago that stuck with me. Can a lion climb a tree and eat an apple? Sure. Will he? No. It's not in his nature - but he's not being forced NOT to climb a tree and instead eat a zebra. It's totally his choice. It's the same with man.
Jarthur001
Active Member
No. Calvin didn't come up with this idea. Its in the Bible
You are free to think what you want, but you may want to read before guessing
Which shows you have not read his books.
You can't say much that will run me off.I have to change my tone here because though I'm putting foreward ideas I've argued against at work and elsewhere I don't want to give the impression I secretly agree with them. I don't. So I'll stick with discussing Calvinism (don't want reformed baptist to leave :laugh
Jarthur001
Active Member
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