Calvanism Application

[Jarthur001]

All those who have placed their faith in Christ. We are elect "in Christ".

God chose before the foundation of the world to elect those who believed.

I do not believe, nor see anywhere in scripture that God arbitrarily chose some (with no basis or purpose) to be saved.

Man chose and then God chose because man chose God.

Does not Scripture tell us you have it backwards?

Isa 43....
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen:

NOW WATCH VERY CLOSE

.....that ye may know

Where it comes......watch it now...

and believe me,

and the rest.....

and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

What would you lie to change in the verse?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

C'mon Jarthur, she doesn't want to change the Scripture. She wants to obey it and follow it to the best of her ability. So, don't ask "What would you like to change in the verse" but rather, "Don't you agree that this is what the verse is saying? If not, why/how not?"

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Before I answer, i want to as...what do you believe? The reason why I ask now, is that I seem to be seeing something over the last two threads we need to address before we go on.

Please state your doctrine of salvation to which you hold.

I'm a cal-menist :laugh:

I'm kidding.

I am saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. A Faith that God gave to me not one I was able to give myself. This faith is testified to in the scriptures which is the very word of God. I'm not sure if thats what you're looking for. When you speak of Doctrine I do lean more Calvenistic than not. My friends are all calvanistic and the people I hang out at church with are calvanistic. So there you go. However, I'm not a dispensationalist and lean also toward Coventant theology. Does that help?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I'm a cal-menist :laugh:

I'm kidding.

I am saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. A Faith that God gave to me not one I was able to give myself. This faith is testified to in the scriptures which is the very word of God. I'm not sure if thats what you're looking for. When you speak of Doctrine I do lean more Calvenistic than not. My friends are all calvanistic and the people I hang out at church with are calvanistic. So there you go. However, I'm not a dispensationalist and lean also toward Coventant theology. Does that help?

Spelling police: It's Calvinist. :type:

Carry on..

 

[Jarthur001]

I'm a cal-menist :laugh:

I'm kidding.

I am saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. A Faith that God gave to me not one I was able to give myself. This faith is testified to in the scriptures which is the very word of God. I'm not sure if thats what you're looking for. When you speak of Doctrine I do lean more Calvenistic than not. My friends are all calvanistic and the people I hang out at church with are calvanistic. So there you go. However, I'm not a dispensationalist and lean also toward Coventant theology. Does that help?

one element will place you in calvinism or outside.

what is election?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

one element will place you in calvinism or outside.

what is election?

That God chose me from before the foundations of the earth to be saved.

 

[Jarthur001]

But God "LOVED" the whole world and Jesus died for the sins of the whole that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved.

right, wrong, right.

So how come this "LOVE" turned into "condemnation" for some???

It didn't. Love never fails....and that would be the point.

Lying isn't the only thing that is impossible for God, so is "programing/ordaining/predestine" some one to "LOVE GOD".

ok. But I know of no one that believes this unless it is you.

The very "Nature of Love" prevent that, just as God has a "FREE WILL" to chose whom he will love, so does mankind made in God's image.

By Nature he is also holy. You only look at one perfection. God would be unjust if he left man to His own will. It is because of God love that he chose some. That is what the Bible says. There is but one way to see Gods love as pure.

BTW..that would be... CALVINISM.

Pr 8:17 I love them that love me;

Because he 1st loved us.

Love is a commandment which we can keep/break, for the simple reason that God can't "program/predestine" anyone to love him,

No you but you has said anything about program. However, Gods word addresses predestination. If you don't care with what it says, take it up with God. But I don't think he will change things because you don't like it.

Love can only exist as a "free will expression" of the person, or God

.
lets see....

You love you child so much that if they wish to play in the street that has cars going at 60 miles a hour ....then the only way to show love is to let them by letting them have their will.

To me that is not love.

One third of the angels chose to follow Satan, so on/in the New Heaven/Earth, neither man/angel will be there who hasn't made this choice to "love God".

do angels get saved? Men do.....but do angels? Once fallen always fallen?

"Love" is at the "Heart" of the plan of salvation.

you got that right.

 

[Jarthur001]

His love for those He didn't chose?

no..

and that would be the point.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
However, you state: Sounds like what our legal system calls entrapment

.
Not at all. God uses sin to bring about his glory. Man is still held responsible for it is his sin nature that controls him. Its much like a mouse maze. God places things in our life to turn us. We still have a choice as does the mouse.

How did God harden the heart of pharaoh? He did it by asking pharaoh to do right. God also knew he would not. Now years later pharaoh stands before God. God says..Pharaoh why did you not listen to me? Can Pharaoh say...but God you didn't tell me? Can he say..God you didn't give me a chance? Not at all.

The same is true in the garden. Can Adam say ..."God you only gave me one choice and all the other choices were evil???" Nope

Did God setup the garden? Yes.

Did God setup Adam? You could look at it that way, but he set him up where he would have no excuse.

And by Man you mean Adam.

well..yes Adam. But he still could have killed all mankind at any point. But he did not. This to shows his love and mercy. NO?

In which case, God would be just (though the entrapment issue is still outstanding) punishing Adam but instead he lets Adam propigate and places each of his decendents under the same judgement even though it wasn't by their choice.

You'er free to call it anything you wish. I would not call it entrapment because within Adam before the fall rest a will to say no to sin.

Punishing not only Adam, but also all of Adams race......I agree. BTW..the Bible agrees

They are guilty by association.

ok.

and we are saved by association as well. Is that fair?

And now they can't even choose!

The choice is always out there, but man is not able to chose because of sin.

Like this....

Lets say you like the NY Jets. In fact you love the Jets. You are a Jet freak. That is all you talk about...and you have all the Jet stuff all over your office. You drive a Jet green car....and always wear jet green shoes.

Lets say I have tickets to the Jets and the Lions. I offer you one...but only one. Both tickets are on the same day. Both are open games. Because I offer both knowing which one you will take, does that mean I forced them on you? I think not.

So God wasn't satisfied by condemning one man but billions to eternal torment for the choice of one man!

You got it now.

What does that say about God

?
That he is a just God and he hates sin. What does that say to you?

Sounds like a narsicistic, vengful, meglomaniac egotist.

That is what my atheist friend says. Do you believe that as well?

But that's ok because God chose a few to go to Heaven (and they don't really have a choice in this matter either)

.
that is a poor understanding of election. No one is forced into anything.

Doesn't make sense.

You have failed to work out each system to its final end. Stick around....we will get there.

He sets up billions of people to suffer for all eternity that some (couple million maybe) might get to hang out with him singing his praise and telling God how good he is by selecting them and suffering temporarily so that he could have satisfied his judgement which was caused by an entrapment scheme.

I don't agree...but lets say he did. I see no problem...do you?

Also you said But Doesn't your theology state that God is good and that man is made in his image so there is something good.

indeed

However, God saves man because man is made in his image but cannot do the same things for angels because they're nothing like him?

We are not told that God saves man because he is made in his image. Please state your source.

Kind of fitting in God's motif of being a Narcisist.

The chief end of man is to what?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Jarthur001,
You never told me which side of calvanism I fall on. You asked me what I understood election to be and I answered. So what side?

BTW my arguments are based on a co-worker and he is an Athiest or what I call a generalist.

Generalist is not really an agnostic. But whether there is a god or not is irrelevant. Or I don't care if there is a God or not doesn't really affect my life.

I'll argue things he has said in the past or others who are similar to him in beliefs. Some have a good understand of scripture but refuse to believe it some are totally antagonistic to the consept. So If I say something thats reflecting their opinion its their opinion or my take on their opinion not my view which I've stated here. This is how I believe they view what you are saying. I don't believe God is narcisistic they do. But if I can flush a good Calvanistic verse other view discussion I'm doing well. Think of it like the ancient philosophers who wrote as a student and asked questions then answered as the philosopher. I'm taking the role of the co-worker for the basis of this discussion. But it should flush out why people have problems with Calvinism.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Jarthur001,
You never told me which side of calvanism I fall on. You asked me what I understood election to be and I answered. So what side?

BTW my arguments are based on a co-worker and he is an Athiest or what I call a generalist.

Generalist is not really an agnostic. But whether there is a god or not is irrelevant. Or I don't care if there is a God or not doesn't really affect my life.

I'll argue things he has said in the past or others who are similar to him in beliefs. Some have a good understand of scripture but refuse to believe it some are totally antagonistic to the consept. So If I say something thats reflecting their opinion its their opinion or my take on their opinion not my view which I've stated here. This is how I believe they view what you are saying. I don't believe God is narcisistic they do. But if I can flush a good Calvanistic verse other view discussion I'm doing well. Think of it like the ancient philosophers who wrote as a student and asked questions then answered as the philosopher. I'm taking the role of the co-worker for the basis of this discussion. But it should flush out why people have problems with Calvinism.

Spelling police: It's Calvinism.

Carry on..

 

[Jarthur001]

Jarthur001,
You never told me which side of calvanism I fall on. You asked me what I understood election to be and I answered. So what side?

Lets put it this way.

A Calvinist would agree with your statement on election.

BTW my arguments are based on a co-worker and he is an Athiest or what I call a generalist.

Generalist is not really an agnostic. But whether there is a god or not is irrelevant. Or I don't care if there is a God or not doesn't really affect my life.

I would say that I have never came across a REAL agnostic. Most are only dishonest skeptics. I debate athiest all the time. I find it funny that athiest spend so much time attacking something that they claim is not there.

But it should flush out why people have problems with Calvinism.

what problem do you...yourself have with Calvinism?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The chief end of man is to what?

by your answer to "glorify" himself. Which is selfish. in otherwords I'll make a group of slaves to tell me how good I am and my ego will love it.

Not at all. God uses sin to bring about his glory. Man is still held responsible for it is his sin nature that controls him.

when I was born I didn't do anything to deserve God's contempt. Adam did why do I have to suffer for his error? Yet I'm held responsible for something a disobedient man did 7,000 years ago. And since sin controls me I really don't have any choice but to sin so you can't really blame me for that either.

The same is true in the garden. Can Adam say ..."God you only gave me one choice and all the other choices were evil???" Nope

Did God setup the garden? Yes.

Did God setup Adam?

sure looks that way because God knew Adam would sin. Not only that he allowed the devil to use his wiles on the man. Man wasn't even a day old! God sure put Adam in a predicament! That can't be fair.

well..yes Adam. But he still could have killed all mankind at any point. But he did not. This to shows his love and mercy. NO

Mercy? What? He could have killed Adam and be done with it none of us would exist so it wouldn't matter. But no God had to make billions of people so that the majority of them could suffer. God's begining to sound like the Godfather of the cosanostra.

Did God setup Adam? You could look at it that way, but he set him up where he would have no excuse.

At least in the american system law enforcement isn't allowed to conduct entrapment opperations. Why? because its wrong.

rest a will to say no to sin

My point since no one since Adam's had a choice. I call that evil.

and we are saved by association as well. Is that fair?

No because I have to be elect to even make the right decision. So no its not fair.

The choice is always out there, but man is not able to chose because of sin.

There is no choice since we are all sinners the bible says "all men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" no? Not really a choice. We were born that way sinners. Isn't that what total depravity is all about. I'm depraved. So what choice do I have?

. I offer you one...but only one. Both tickets are on the same day. Both are open games. Because I offer both knowing which one you will take, does that mean I forced them on you?

Your example the person has a position of choice. Man's condition doesn't afford that privilage.

that is a poor understanding of election

Well, explain it then.

I don't agree...but lets say he did. I see no problem...do you?

Yeah I have a problem with God deliberately torturing billions of people for eternity. I also have a problem with torture for a limited amount of time.

We are not told that God saves man because he is made in his image. Please state your source.

Why does God save man? because he loves us? Why does he love us or find us valuable? Why not the angels. They didn't get a second non-chance. They fell once and it was done. God made man in his image so I think God does it because he sees a bit of himself in us. Why do you think he saves us or loves us?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Lets put it this way.

A Calvinist would agree with your statement on election.


I would say that I have never came across a REAL agnostic. Most are only dishonest skeptics. I debate athiest all the time. I find it funny that athiest spend so much time attacking something that they claim is not there.


what problem do you...yourself have with Calvinism?

To be honest I'm not educated enough to know. Does it reflect what man experiences? I'm not certain it does in every case.

 

[Jarthur001]

Jarthur001,
Y
BTW my arguments are based on a co-worker and he is an Athiest or what I call a generalist.

Generalist is not really an agnostic. But whether there is a god or not is irrelevant. Or I don't care if there is a God or not doesn't really affect my life.

Well, I have not read all your post, but the ones I have read, you do indeed take the same old athiest argument I read 20 years ago. It would be nice to see you defend the faith and the Bible from a Christian view.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Well, I have not read all your post, but the ones I have read, you do indeed take the same old athiest argument I read 20 years ago. It would be nice to see you defend the faith and the Bible from a Christian view.

Sure. I do it at work all the time. However, thats a lot of back patting. But sure I can do it.

 

[Pastor Larry]

when I was born I didn't do anything to deserve God's contempt. Adam did why do I have to suffer for his error? Yet I'm held responsible for something a disobedient man did 7,000 years ago.

Through salvation you are held responsible for righteousness you didn't commit. You are given the standing of something a righteous man did 2000 years ago. Are you going to complain about that too?

That can't be fair

Why? Where did you get your standard of fairness?

Yeah I have a problem with God deliberately torturing billions of people for eternity. I also have a problem with torture for a limited amount of time.

Do you have a problem when a murderer is locked up for life? I imagine you don't. So what is the problem when a criminal against God is locked up for eternity which is a just response to his crimes against God

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Through salvation you are held responsible for righteousness you didn't commit. You are given the standing of something a righteous man did 2000 years ago. Are you going to complain about that too?

Why? Where did you get your standard of fairness?

Do you have a problem when a murderer is locked up for life? I imagine you don't. So what is the problem when a criminal against God is locked up for eternity which is a just response to his crimes against God

Fairness is received from societal standards. Ie out of Jesus' own mouth "love your neighbor as yourself". I doubt Jesus enjoyed dying on the cross the fact that he sweated blood is a good indicator he was stressed about it. I infact don't have a problem with a murder being locked up for life. I do have a problem that a person has no other choice than to be a murderer. Kind of tragic that.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Fairness is received from societal standards. Ie out of Jesus' own mouth "love your neighbor as yourself".

Wouldn't you admit that society is pretty messed up? How can we judge true fairness based on something that is so messed up?

I doubt Jesus enjoyed dying on the cross the fact that he sweated blood is a good indicator he was stressed about it.

First, you don't seem that concerned about fairness here. Why not?

Second, the Bible does say that Jesus died "for the joy that was set before him."

I infact don't have a problem with a murder being locked up for life.

So why do you have a problem with a criminal against God going to hell for eternity? Our sin against God is far worse than our crimes against other man. And with God there is no injustice in the trial system. So it sounds like you have a double standard, and I don't see how that's fair.

I do have a problem that a person has no other choice than to be a murderer.

But what if he wants to be a murderer? Do you object then?

 

[Amy.G]

The difference I see in my view on this subject, and yours, is not that one is arbitrary and the other is not. It is that your more Arminian view puts God's choice based on man's action (belief/faith foreseen), and my view based on God's own will, pleasure and good purpose.

God bless,
RB

I see both of these things.