The problem with this analogy is that the lion wasn't condemned to hell for not climbing the tree.
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Calvanism Application
- Thread starter Thinkingstuff
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The problem with this analogy is that the lion wasn't condemned to hell for not climbing the tree.
Uh oh, I guess the lion went against his nature after all! :laugh:
Jarthur001
Active Member
:laugh::laugh::laugh:
You guys don't know about these?????
PETA made about 5 of this films. All of them were spoofs. Do a google.
too funny
I don't define it, scripture does,
Made in God's image, we have the ability to love Mammon or God.
Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
It didn't. Love never fails....and that would be the point.
God loved the whole world, Jesus died for sins of the whole that the world "MIGHT BE" saved.
But the whole world isn't saved, was it God's love of man or man lack of love for God that failed to save man??
Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
With man's sin nature/one sin guilty of all, death required for that sin, it's impossible for man to redeem himself,
But Jesus didn't chose to die just for "Some sins", but "ALL SINS", that all "MIGHT BE" saved.
And there are no "might be" where sovereign will rules.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
"Robots" are "programmed/predestined", If God isn't lying about not being willing for any to perish, why didn't he program/predestine everyone to be saved???
Would you "ELECT" to just save some of the kids playing the street, or all of them??
Which would be love.
Angels had a choice to follow God/Satan, same a man.
Animals eat grass/plants when their stomach is upset, even chew/eat the bark off trees.
One of the things I point out to my Calvinist friends is that his doctrine and assement of man's abilities is based on/in the NT,
He never considered the OT and people's ability to make up their own mind to obey/disobey God,
and without having a "Comforter/Holy Ghost" to call/lead/guide them.
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Just as there was no reason (predestine) for them to die "IF" they turned from their wickedness, there's no reason for anyone else to die.
And I want to reinterate, this was without any help from the spirit, God spoke to the prophets, prophets spoke to the people,
Obedience/Disobedience was a "decision" left up to them, and it's the same today.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Under what is called common grace this is true.
No. You make God's Love cheap and with no power.
Love never fails...and God is Love. So if he died for all of mankind parts of his love did not work. If however his blood was for those he loved only......it did not fail. It had the power to save and it worked. Gods love does not depend on mans love for Gods love to work.
indeed.
Another good one..
Another one...
ok...I agree
If he died for all, than all sins are forgven and all are saved, for the power of the blood worked and did not need man to stamp it complete
He laid down His life for the sheep (John 10:15)
Which means...thos that are not his sheep..........????? what??
ok...
sovereign will means full power and control. It means what Christ setout to do, he got done.
Nothing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.
Nothing? Did Christ die because he love us??? Did his death work? Will your will separate you from Christ plan?
Nothing? Did Christ start loving us when we believed?
Look above this verse and you will see that the answer is in the wind.
It is you that says he died for each man. You need to answer why he had not the power to do this. Yes and indeed, why not robots? That would have save the whole lot. No?
I would save my child 1st.
Not to let them have their will...as I said before
I said that as well. I also made the point which you dodged that angels are not saved, but men are.
That God chose a person from before the foundations of the earth to be unsaved. Is that right?
You do realize that the sentence I enlarged, more specifically the part of that enlargment I embolded, is strictly a Pelegain or even a Semi-Pelegian view in which man comes to God unaided by God in any way (without help from the Spirit) and is condemned by both sides (cals and non-cals) as an heretical view.
NOW - I'm not saying you are and you might have actaully meant something else. However, the way you phrased it is unscriptural in the worst way. We can not come to Christ (salvation via faith) without the help of the Holy Spirit.
Jarthur001
Active Member
All three verses have nothing to do with Calvinism. All three verses speak of calamities which Calvinist and non-Calvinist alike believe come from the hand of God. All but the mystic crowd that is, who believes the devil does it all.
Isaiah 45:7 "I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things."
Amos 3:6 "Is a trumpet blown in a city,
and the people are not afraid?
Does disaster come to a city,
unless the LORD has done it?"
Lamentations 3:38 "Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?"
I agree. The statement was made that in order to love, we must have the choice not to love. Can you show us that from Scripture? None of the verses cited here show that.
Does God have the choice not to love? The Bible says "God is love." It is one of his attributes. God can't choose to stop being God can he?
What is it about the image of God that necessitates this ability?
How do you know they didn't have the Holy Spirit?
No, the Bible never uses "elect" terminology to describe the unsaved.
Genesis 41:38 "And Pharaoh said to his servants, "Can we find a man like this, in whom is the Spirit of God?""
Exodus 31:1-3a "1The LORD said to Moses, 2"See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, "
Numbers 11:25 "Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him, and took some of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. And as soon as the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied. But they did not continue doing it."
Numbers 24:2 "And Balaam lifted up his eyes and saw Israel camping tribe by tribe. And the Spirit of God came upon him, "
Numbers 27:18 "So the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him."
and there's a lot more.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
If you attempted to sit up a court of law according to calvin's doctrine and the law of scripture, it would very quickly become known as the most "corrupt court" in the land.
According to the "LAW", The "defense Attorney" (Jesus) has already paid the "fine" (wages) for "any/all" that will believe/confess his name to the "Judge", (God)
(Law)
he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
the world through him might be saved.
According to Calvin,the defendant (person) innocents/guilt doesn't depend on whether the person believes or not,
but on an "Arbitrary" decision of the "judge", (predestination) without regards for the law and the fact that the "fine" (wages) paid was sufficient to cover his violation of the law.
In this situation, the "Judge" is actually "denying" the defendant (person) coverage of Jesus's death for the sins of the whole world,
A Judge can not "Arbitrary" withhold any coverage of the law from a defendant, he can only issue a verdict according to law.
And our innocent/guilt under God's law is based on "OUR BELIEF/UNBELIEF" in Jesus,
and the Judge has "N
PTION" but to issue a verdict of innocent/guilt according to the law, based on "our belief/unbelief". Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because
he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
This is why Calvins doctrine, predestination/arbitrary decision of the Judge, won't work in a court of law and why it would be a "Corrupt court",
"Limited Atonement" puts "Jesus, "God" and the "law" at variance with each other.
I agree that God "foreknew" the future, but that future wasn't a predestination by "Sovereign will".
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