Calvanism Application

[gb93433]

God is not restricted to time, but the subject of his choice is restricted to time. If man is chosen, this means God has also chosen time for man will live for a God given time and then die at a God appointed time. That choice must be restricted to the same time that the subject of the choice exist, or there is nothing to choose, now is there?

If God choses me to be tall, being that I am subject to time, my tallness must take place in the same time frame that I exist.

Since God has chosen me before the foundation of the world, where does that place me and my soul in past time (Eph. 1:4).

 

[Jarthur001]

Since God has chosen me before the foundation of the world, where does that place me and my soul in past time (Eph. 1:4).

"past time" as in before you exist? It would place you in the future in the time that you will exist. This line of questions you should have known since elementary school.

It is indeed clear at this point that some in desperation are trying to avoid the clear teaching of the Bible.

Election is of God. The argument a few pages back was, but God choses "in Christ" as if that meant We placed ourselves "in Christ". When that was shown as bad theology we see a change to a new argument of , "Well you don't understand time". Why not simply accept the truth of election and or say you don't understand it all, then makeup an elaborate scheme to avoid the truth?

 

[saturneptune]

"past time" as in before you exist? It would place you in the future in the time that you will exist. This line of questions you should have known since elementary school.

It is indeed clear at this point that some in desperation are trying to avoid the clear teaching of the Bible.

Election is of God. The argument a few pages back was, but God choses "in Christ" as if that meant We placed ourselves "in Christ". When that was shown as bad theology we see a change to a new argument of , "Well you don't understand time". Why not simply accept the truth of election and or say you don't understand it all, then makeup an elaborate scheme to avoid the truth?

Exactly correct. The fact is, none of us understand time in all its concepts, neither do we understand an existence outside of time and space, which is called eternity. The Bible tells us all we need to know in this life, and one of those facts is that everything that is comes from God, including all events in our lives and the world.

 

[Me4Him]

Election is of God. The argument a few pages back was, but God choses "in Christ" as if that meant We placed ourselves "in Christ". When that was shown as bad theology we see a change to a new argument of , "Well you don't understand time". Why not simply accept the truth of election and or say you don't understand it all, then makeup an elaborate scheme to avoid the truth?

God "elects" to save any/all who will yield to God, rather than trying to their own God, over their own life.

Everyone is "Equal" under the law, the reason "lady Justice" wears a "blindfold".

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/163/415093674_edddb13446.jpg?v=0

A Judge can not, by his own prerogative, give "Pardons" to some while withholding the same pardons from others.

There must be a "point of law" to "Justify" the separation of those pardons from those not pardons.

Faith/Belief equals wages of sin paid, not under the law,

Unbelief equals wages unpaid, still under the law.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,

because (point of law)

he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You'll have to understand the "Judicial system" to understand the "plan of salvation".

 

[saturneptune]

God "elects" to save any/all who will yield to God, rather than trying to their own God, over their own life.

Everyone is "Equal" under the law, the reason "lady Justice" wears a "blindfold".

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/163/415093674_edddb13446.jpg?v=0

A Judge can not, by his own prerogative, give "Pardons" to some while withholding the same pardons from others.

There must be a "point of law" to "Justify" the separation of those pardons from those not pardons.

Faith/Belief equals wages of sin paid, not under the law,

Unbelief equals wages unpaid, still under the law.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,

because (point of law)

he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You'll have to understand the "Judicial system" to understand the "plan of salvation".

Unless God quickened our spirit, we could not believe. Without the intervention of God, we would not believe and be condemned already. God is the Creator, and really, He could care less about our points of law or judicial system, a man made institution. There is no comparison here.

 

[Me4Him]

Unless God quickened our spirit, we could not believe. Without the intervention of God, we would not believe and be condemned already. God is the Creator, and really, He could care less about our points of law or judicial system, a man made institution. There is no comparison here.

You're not the only one that doesn't see any connection between "law and Scripture",

And that, believe it or not, is the problem.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Every point of law will be "Fulfillled", precisely according to the "law of Justice".

 

[MB]

As has been stated before...

27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him.

NOW WHO PLACED US IN CHRIST???
I'm glad you asked...

30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

I don't deny Salvation is all of God. I have claimed this all along. We just are not born saved no matter what you want to believe. We are simply not in Christ until we are. And we are not elect until we are in Christ. Our election is dependant on our Salvation not the other way around.
MB

 

[here now]

You're not the only one that doesn't see any connection between "law and Scripture",

And that, believe it or not, is the problem.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Every point of law will be "Fulfillled", precisely according to the "law of Justice".

The law has already been fulfilled , by Jesus. It has nothing to do with mans' law.

 

[MB]

So you think we were saved before the foundation of the world? Because the Bible clearly states that we were elect before the foundation of the world. If you deny that, you are denying the truthfulness of God’s word.

I do not believe we were saved before the foundatiion of the world but I do believe we were elect before the foundation of the world "IN CHRIST"

I like that very much. It is what gives us hope.

Why in the world would you say I have avoided “in Christ”? That is total nonsense. I haven’t at all. You are the one avoiding words in the verse. I am the one insisting that we actually pay attention to the words in the verse.

Then are you saved before the foundation of the world, You do not receive the effectiveness of your election until you are "In Christ" We must still believe even though it is the faith of Christ that saves. Our believing is the direct result of our being convinced of the truth through the Holy Spirit and the word.

These words in bold that weren't in quote in your post are my words from post 164. If you agree then we have no argument

You see it means that our election is in Christ. We didn't exsist so He stood in to represent us so we could be elected just as He stood in and received the punishment for our sins.

Please do not say things that are untrue. This is demonstrably untrue. Please apologize and cease this type of stuff in the future.

I can only go by what you your self have said in post 157 You said;

The Bible says we were chosen before the foundation of the world. So if you don't believe that, you don't believe the Bible. Other than that, I don't know what you are saying here. You are saying we can be elect before we are born in Christ. Is that correct? So to be elect doesn't mean to be "in Christ."

This should prove that you have left "IN CHRIST" out of the sentence. There is no untruth it's what you said. You believe that all that we are elect before Salvation but we are not elect until we are in Christ. because Christ stood in our place before Salvation before the foundation of the world

It speaks of Christ as our head and our representative.

True it does and because He is our representive we can only be elected while "In Christ" out side of Christ we are enemies we are not elect out side of Christ. So Christ represents us in our choosing and we receive that election when we believe and are reconciled. We cannot be elect with out being Christ. A mystery for sure but it the only explanation of being chosen from before the foundation of the world when we're not in Christ.

Just to say you are already elect before Salvation doesn't work because of those words "IN CHRIST"

Again, please stop saying things that are untrue. I am not avoiding the Scripture. I am pointing out that the Scripture says “God choose us.” You need to abandon any theology or belief that does not agree that God chose us. You can’t just skip over words that you don’t like. When you say one thing and Scripture says something else, we must by reason of conscious and loyalty to God, go with Scripture. You lose on this one.

Well if you don't mind I'll stay with the understanding given to me.
MB

 

[webdog]

Good. Now .....when God elected me was God looking at the time frame in which I was bound to time?

God exists in all parts of time at once...so I don't understand your question. There is no looking forward or backward with God.

 

[webdog]

Unless God quickened our spirit, we could not believe. Without the intervention of God, we would not believe and be condemned already. God is the Creator, and really, He could care less about our points of law or judicial system, a man made institution. There is no comparison here.

Who quickened the spirits of those who don't believe? Romans 1 is clear that all people either accept or reject the Truth...and dead people can't reject anything

 

[gb93433]

"past time" as in before you exist? It would place you in the future in the time that you will exist.

God's time is not our time. His time is from eternity past to eternity future. Since God chose me before the foundation of the world then when did my soul begin to exist according to his time?

I am waiting for a biblical answer from scripture not an answer tied to rationalism.

 

[gb93433]

Why not simply accept the truth of election and or say you don't understand it all, then makeup an elaborate scheme to avoid the truth?

Oh I do accept the truth of election. What I find is that not many calvinists who claim they do, in reality do not because their theology being tied to rationalism does not let them fully accept that doctrine. Earlier on the BB I got quite a few of rationalistic responses about the correct interpretation of Is 45:7, Amos 3:6, and Lam 3:38. I have yet to find one of them agree with the plain teaching of scripture in those verses. It seems that their view of the sovereignty of God does not extend that far but yet scripture does.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Election cannot be grace.

Limited Atonement cannot be love.

Irresistible grace cannot be free will.

And if man is so unable to recognize his fallen state, why are there so many religions in the world ? Man knows he's a sinner. Catholic confession, Muslim pilgrimages, Buddhist chants, and all manner of Pagan sacrifice, all tell me man knows they are no good.

 

[annsni]

Election cannot be grace.

Limited Atonement cannot be love.

Irresistible grace cannot be free will.

And if man is so unable to recognize his fallen state, why are there so many religions in the world ? Man knows he's a sinner. Catholic confession, Muslim pilgrimages, Buddhist chants, and all manner of Pagan sacrifice, all tell me man knows they are no good.

Psalm 14

"1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
there is none who does good.

2The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.

3They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.

4Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers
who eat up my people as they eat bread
and do not call upon the LORD?

5There they are in great terror,
for God is with the generation of the righteous.
6You would shame the plans of the poor,
but the LORD is his refuge.

7Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores the fortunes of his people,
let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad."

(ESV)

 

[MB]

Election cannot be grace.

Limited Atonement cannot be love.

Irresistible grace cannot be free will.

And if man is so unable to recognize his fallen state, why are there so many religions in the world ? Man knows he's a sinner. Catholic confession, Muslim pilgrimages, Buddhist chants, and all manner of Pagan sacrifice, all tell me man knows they are no good.

I believe that the conscience convicts us of our wrongs however it is not as strong as conviction as by the Spirit. We can't be convicted by the Spirit until we are convinced of the gospel. Both really the work of the Holy Spirit.
MB

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Sorry, Annsni, but I was merely stating opinion. This has been going on for 20 pages, and I'm not going to debate it. I am stating my belief. Calvinism may be closer to true scripture than Armenianism, or Pelagianism, but after all the debates are done, my belief is God offered his son for the sins of the world, and it is up to us to recieve it.

 

[Jerome]

"Some feel that the gospel is too simple. They want a more complicated system than—"believe and live."" ---Charles Spurgeon

 

[Jarthur001]

"Some feel that the gospel is too simple. They want a more complicated system than—"believe and live."" ---Charles Spurgeon

Charles Spurgeon was a 5 point Calvinist

I feel persuaded that false doctrine, inasmuch as it touches God’s sovereignty, is always an object of divine jealousy. Let me indicate especially the doctrines of free-will. I know there are some good men who hold and preach them, but I am persuaded that the Lord must be grieved with their doctrine though he forgives them their sin of ignorance.

Free-will doctrine — what does it? It magnifies man into God; it declares God’s purposes a nullity, since they cannot be carried out unless men are willing. It makes God’s will a waiting servant to the will of man, and the whole covenant of grace dependent upon human action. Denying election on the ground of injustice it holds God to be a debtor to sinners, so that if he gives grace to one he is bound to do so to all. It teaches that the blood of Christ was shed equally for all men and since some are lost, this doctrine ascribes the difference to man’s own will, thus making the atonement itself a powerless thing until the will of man gives it efficacy. Those sentiments dilute the scriptural description of man’s depravity, and by imputing strength to fallen humanity, rob the Spirit of the glory of his effectual grace: this theory says in effect that it is of him that willeth, and of him that runneth, and not of God that showeth mercy. ---Charles Spurgeon

 

[Jarthur001]

I don't deny Salvation is all of God. I have claimed this all along. We just are not born saved no matter what you want to believe. We are simply not in Christ until we are. And we are not elect until we are in Christ. Our election is dependant on our Salvation not the other way around.
MB

No one has claimed to be born saved. What needs to be asked....

Do you believe that it is Christ that places us In Christ or is it our will that places us in Christ?