Calvanism Application

[annsni]

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

 

[Jarthur001]

The subject is the blessings “we” (both Jew and Gentile) receive in the promise and that is defined as “in” Christ. Having predestined “us” (Jew and Gentile) unto the adoption/having “foreordained” that “all” who “afterward” believed should enjoy the dignity of being sons of God.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, (Ephesians 1:13)


Again the subject in Eph 1 is the blessings…in which Paul addresses the Gentiles in v13 after addressing the Jews in v12… about “the purpose of the promise” being made know unto us in a mystery of His will – the gracious “scheme of salvation” by faith, - that in the fullness of times He will gather “us” (believers, both Jews and Gentiles) …HOW?...”in” Him. (Eph 1:9.)

Talk about a “huge problem”…The Predestinarians purposely leave off the “IN Christ” and attempt to change the meaning to individual that which is contained in the subject and thereby force an interpretation of individual election to fit their flowery TULIP. See here what I mean…we got one Predestinarian (above) praising another’s dogma above him who just purposely left off the “in Christ” in his statements while he is suggesting that if you don’t believe “his” interpretation then you don’t believe the Bible:


Tsk…tsk…talk about “avoiding”; ya’ll see how the “IN Christ” was left off???


See there how he not only misinterprets the “we” to fit his desperate scheme, claiming that others are “trying to avoid what the Bile says”, and also, yet again, leaves off the “IN Christ”?

The Word is written so that a child can understand it, if you read it for what it says without placing in the presuppositions of predestination. I’ll leave it to the reader to decide where the “huge problem is”, what is the “subject”, and if the “pastor is right” in the way he expounded the scriptural meanings.

Hello Ben,

If you will take the time and read the full thread you will know I have address "IN" before. And while we are at it. Why do non-Calvinist always place the words "In Christ" in quotes just as I did? Do they fell this gives more power to the statement?

Ben, if you care to read the thread, and wish to make a reply to what I said, please do so. No need to say you were wrong in your post. We predestinarian saw it coming and are use to it.

 

[Jarthur001]

And BTW Ben,

Anytime you wish to take up a thread in Eph, let me know.

 

[MB]

The Bible says we were chosen before the foundation of the world. So if you don't believe that, you don't believe the Bible. Other than that, I don't know what you are saying here. You are saying we can be elect before we are born in Christ. Is that correct? So to be elect doesn't mean to be "in Christ."

No I believe we are elect when we are saved. I do not believe we can be elect out side of Christ. Christ died in our stead for our sins and was chosen in our stead for Salvation. Dependant on our submission to His righteousness Rom 10:1-4. Like it or not Salvation is dependant on faith. No faith, no Salvation. Yes faith is a gift as in Eph 2:8-9. It is a gift because it isn't ours but is instead the faith of Christ. Gal 2:16-21.

That's not what Eph 1:4 says. It says "we" (actually us) were chosen before the foundation of the world.

Why not consider the whole sentence instead of avoiding "IN Christ" You see it means that our election is in Christ. We didn't exsist so He stood in to represent us so we could be elected just as He stood in and received the punishment for our sins.

Yes. Which contradicts what you said above. Make up your mind. You can't say men were not elected before the foundation of the world and then say we were elected before the foundation of the world (unless you think we are not men).

I know how it sounded to you because you have stopped reading in the middle of the sentence. You do not want to deal with what the whole scripture states. You still have to deal with "IN CHRST" There is no period where you have stopped reading. A sentence is a complete thought. You can't explain how we can be elect in Christ before Salvation when we cannot be IN CHRIST and not be saved because we didn't exsist at the beginning.
The verse says;
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The sentence doesn't stop until the colon.

I think we are seeing some of the desperation of incoherence here that results from someone desperately trying to avoid what the Bible says.

In you yes I would agree because it is you who is avoiding what the scripture says and have stopped short because it contradicts what you believe. All you have to do is believe it all, instead of part if it.

It says God chose "us." Why not simply accept that rather than create some elaborate scheme to avoid it?

Like I said and you just proved it yourself, you only want to accept just a few words of the sentence and not the whole.

No one is elected to salvation without respect to Christ and salvation.

Very true so why not consider the whole of the sentence.
MB

 

[Jarthur001]

Why not consider the whole sentence instead of avoiding "IN Christ" You see it means that our election is in Christ. We didn't exsist so He stood in to represent us so we could be elected just as He stood in and received the punishment for our sins.

I know how it sounded to you because you have stopped reading in the middle of the sentence. You do not want to deal with what the whole scripture states. You still have to deal with "IN CHRST" There is no period where you have stopped reading. A sentence is a complete thought. You can't explain how we can be elect in Christ before Salvation when we cannot be IN CHRIST and not be saved because we didn't exsist at the beginning.

As has been stated before...

27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him.

NOW WHO PLACED US IN CHRIST???
I'm glad you asked...

30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

I've read almost every entry on this thread so I think I have the general flow of this discussion. I would just like to add an extra thought or two. I have been reading and studying for over 30 years now and it seems I know less than I did back at the beginning.

First thought, God is not restricted by time, by that I mean time in any direction. God is in all time( past, present, future) tenses at all times.

God has all knowledge of all things all of the time. God knows who the elect are, who the predestined are, and who the foreknown are, He always has and He always will, this will be true whether you are Calvinist or Armenian.

Perhaps if we keep these things in mind it will be helpful. We are not going to understand everything perfectly while we are here, some things will remain a mystery.

 

[webdog]

I've read almost every entry on this thread so I think I have the general flow of this discussion. I would just like to add an extra thought or two. I have been reading and studying for over 30 years now and it seems I know less than I did back at the beginning.

First thought, God is not restricted by time, by that I mean time in any direction. God is in all time( past, present, future) tenses at all times.

God has all knowledge of all things all of the time. God knows who the elect are, who the predestined are, and who the foreknown are, He always has and He always will, this will be true whether you are Calvinist or Armenian.

Perhaps if we keep these things in mind it will be helpful. We are not going to understandf everything perfectly while we are here, some things will remain a mystery.

You are correct, unfortunately our calvinistic brethern don't like this approach, as it messes up their ordo salutis. Systematic theology needs God confined to time in order for the "system" to work.

 

[Jarthur001]

I've read almost every entry on this thread so I think I have the general flow of this discussion. I would just like to add an extra thought or two. I have been reading and studying for over 30 years now and it seems I know less than I did back at the beginning.

First thought, God is not restricted by time, by that I mean time in any direction. God is in all time( past, present, future) tenses at all times.

God has all knowledge of all things all of the time. God knows who the elect are, who the predestined are, and who the foreknown are, He always has and He always will, this will be true whether you are Calvinist or Armenian.

Perhaps if we keep these things in mind it will be helpful. We are not going to understand everything perfectly while we are here, some things will remain a mystery.

Hello Bill,

God is not restricted to time, but the subject of his choice is restricted to time. If man is chosen, this means God has also chosen time for man will live for a God given time and then die at a God appointed time. That choice must be restricted to the same time that the subject of the choice exist, or there is nothing to choose, now is there?

If God choses me to be tall, being that I am subject to time, my tallness must take place in the same time frame that I exist.

This is true any time that Gods choice is applied to his creation. Time is part of creation and cannot be removed when the subject of creation is dealt with.
.

I hope this helps.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Apples and oranges. we are in a time dimension , God is not, big difference.:thumbs:

 

[Pastor Larry]

No I believe we are elect when we are saved.

So you think we were saved before the foundation of the world? Because the Bible clearly states that we were elect before the foundation of the world. If you deny that, you are denying the truthfulness of God’s word.

Like it or not Salvation is dependant on faith. No faith, no Salvation

I like that very much. It is what gives us hope.

Why not consider the whole sentence instead of avoiding "IN Christ"

Why in the world would you say I have avoided “in Christ”? That is total nonsense. I haven’t at all. You are the one avoiding words in the verse. I am the one insisting that we actually pay attention to the words in the verse.

You see it means that our election is in Christ. We didn't exsist so He stood in to represent us so we could be elected just as He stood in and received the punishment for our sins.

I know how it sounded to you because you have stopped reading in the middle of the sentence. You do not want to deal with what the whole scripture states.

Please do not say things that are untrue. This is demonstrably untrue. Please apologize and cease this type of stuff in the future.

You can't explain how we can be elect in Christ before Salvation when we cannot be IN CHRIST and not be saved because we didn't exsist at the beginning.

It speaks of Christ as our head and our representative.

In you yes I would agree because it is you who is avoiding what the scripture says and have stopped short because it contradicts what you believe. All you have to do is believe it all, instead of part if it.

Again, please stop saying things that are untrue. I am not avoiding the Scripture. I am pointing out that the Scripture says “God choose us.” You need to abandon any theology or belief that does not agree that God chose us. You can’t just skip over words that you don’t like. When you say one thing and Scripture says something else, we must by reason of conscious and loyalty to God, go with Scripture. You lose on this one.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The subject is the blessings “we” (both Jew and Gentile) receive in the promise and that is defined as “in” Christ. Having predestined “us” (Jew and Gentile) unto the adoption/having “foreordained” that “all” who “afterward” believed should enjoy the dignity of being sons of God.

Yes indeed.

Talk about a “huge problem”…The Predestinarians purposely leave off the “IN Christ” and attempt to change the meaning to individual that which is contained in the subject and thereby force an interpretation of individual election to fit their flowery TULIP. See here what I mean…we got one Predestinarian (above) praising another’s dogma above him who just purposely left off the “in Christ” in his statements while he is suggesting that if you don’t believe “his” interpretation then you don’t believe the Bible:

No one here left off "in Christ." To the contrary it is we who are insisting that all of Scripture should be heeded, not just a part of it. Please do not continue to say things that are not true. I have not left off "in Christ."

Tsk…tsk…talk about “avoiding”; ya’ll see how the “IN Christ” was left off???

I left it off only in that sentence because some here are skipping words. Finish the sentence: God chose _________. You can't finish it without individual election in Christ before the foundation of the world.

See there how he not only misinterprets the “we” to fit his desperate scheme, claiming that others are “trying to avoid what the Bile says”, and also, yet again, leaves off the “IN Christ”?

Who misinterpreted "we"? "We" is believers who were chosen before the foundation of the world in Christ.

The Word is written so that a child can understand it,

Yes, and it is hard to understand how you can read it and miss the "we" in there.

I’ll leave it to the reader to decide where the “huge problem is”, what is the “subject”, and if the “pastor is right” in the way he expounded the scriptural meanings.

That's already been decided by the words of the text. The reality is that you can argue about what election is. But there is no argument about who was elected or when election took place. You would be better suited trying to argue that election is not to salvation. That would be a hard case to make, but the one you are trying to make now is impossible.

 

[Pastor Larry]

First thought, God is not restricted by time, by that I mean time in any direction. God is in all time( past, present, future) tenses at all times.

That's a bit meaningless since God is the one who injected time into it. God expressed it in terms of time and it would be very unwise for use to reject God's description in favor of our own.

We are not going to understand everything perfectly while we are here, some things will remain a mystery.

This is true. I think some of the Arminian brothers here are not willing to let the mysteries stand. They insist on having answers that God hasn't given us. As a Calvinist, I can fully affirm that God knows all things and renders them certain, that he has completely justly chosen some to salvation, and that all sinners are held personally responsible for their rejection. I don't have to come up witha system to avoid that.

 

[Jarthur001]

Apples and oranges. we are in a time dimension , God is not, big difference.:thumbs:

And that would be the point Bill.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

My apologies, I thought we were talking about election and not creation. Which is it?:wavey:

 

[Jarthur001]

My apologies, I thought we were talking about election and not creation. Which is it?:wavey:

Election.

Let me ask you something and maybe this will help.

If God chose to have me 6'5 when I'm full grown, and I was born in 1960, am I also 6'5 before 1960 because God is not restricted to time?

That would be silly to say yes. God knows before hand yes...but what he knows applies to the time that I exist and am indeed 6'5.

My tallness is linked to when I exist. Not before nor after i exist.

Even Jesus Christ used time, while in creation.

How long was Jesus in the grave? Was he always there or was he never there because Jesus is God and not linked to time?

I'm not sure what is so hard, unless you have an agenda.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

I don't have an agenda. I will not waste anytime playing games.

 

[webdog]

Election.

Let me ask you something and maybe this will help.

If God chose to have me 6'5 when I'm full grown, and I was born in 1960, am I also 6'5 before 1960 because God is not restricted to time?

That would be silly to say yes. God knows before hand yes...but what he knows applies to the time that I exist and am indeed 6'5.

My tallness is linked to when I exist. Not before nor after i exist.

Even Jesus Christ used time, while in creation.

How long was Jesus in the grave? Was he always there or was he never there because Jesus is God and not linked to time?

I'm not sure what is so hard, unless you have an agenda.

You and Christ while on earth are/were bound to time. God is eternal and is not.

 

[webdog]

All time phrases used describing God or His actions are anthropomorphic.

 

[Me4Him]

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If God had any "predestine plans" contrary to the stated mission of Jesus,

Then God and Jesus are not of "one mind, one accord".

Foreknowledge, Yes, Predestine, No.

 

[Jarthur001]

You and Christ while on earth are/were bound to time.

Good. Now .....when God elected me was God looking at the time frame in which I was bound to time?