Calvin & Arminius were both wrong

[Gup20]

Genesis 2:9 (NASB)
Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:17 (NASB)
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Romans 2:14-15 (NASB) 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

So how can those who (as God Himself says) have the “knowledge of Good...” and those who have God’s good law written their hearts be “totally” depraved? If they have the knowledge of good, and the good law written on their hearts either accusing or defending them, they must not be TOTALLY depraved. They must be only partially depraved.

 

[Gup20]

I'm trying to stay with you, but I'm having a hard time. Both Arminians and Calvinists believe that man in his depraved state cannot choose God. And both would never say that their will motivated God to do anything.

You seem intent on begging the question. Where does faith come from? For Calvinists, it is a gift of God. For Arminians, the ability to choose God at long last is only possible by the grace of God. So faith, even to an Arminian is a gift of God. But faith, to both, is the gateway and perfection of salvation.

Where does any “mere belief” come from? Someone gives you information and you choose whether or not to believe that information. Faith comes from The Gospel message itself.

Romans 1:16 (NASB)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Just look at the first Christian, Abraham (first made righteousness by grace through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ). God preached the gospel to him & after he believed God regarding Jesus, God made him righteous for that faith.

This is not true for some other Christians, who (if I may put it extremely indelicately) are really closer to an Islamic conception of grace than a Reformed understanding: God provides grace that we, through our actions, can appropriate to add to our own righteousness of works.

I know you are proud of your two-step conception of salvation, but it really has nothing to do with anything either theoretical or practical.

I accept your criticism of pride & will search myself for such, thank you.

Romans 4:16-17 (NASB) 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

Grace, or unmerited favor, is because we don’t deserve to qualify for righteousness... we qualify through kinship with Abraham, not because our faith was sufficient to absolve us of our sin. It is God honoring His promise to Abraham to give righteousness as an everlasting inheritance to his descendants which motivates God’s grace, not our faith.

Ephesians 2:8 (NASB) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

This oft-misinterpreted verse is used to say that “faith” is a gift. That’s not what it says... it says being saved by grace is the gift. Faith is the medium of exchange through which the gift is acquired (by way of Kinship with Abraham). The gift is righteousness, not faith.

Romans 5:17 (NASB) For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:23 (NASB)
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It makes sense. In Romans 5:12 it says by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin. Therefore if death comes by sin, then life must come by righteousness. So the free gift in Ephesians 2:8 is not faith, but righteousness & life by grace.

 

[Yeshua1]

Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB) "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Romans 8:15-17 (NASB) 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

So we see in Deuteronomy 30 that life & death is absolutely a choice he placed before us. He goes further in saying that it is ABSOLUTELY SYNERGISTIC when he says “I call heaven & earth to witness your choice”

Then Paul makes the same synergistic claim to salvation echoing Deuteronomy 30:19 when he says The Spirit Himself (heaven) testifies (to bear witness) with our spirit (earth) that we are children of God. Note what the synergistic choice does according to Paul; the adoption of sons, the qualification as fellow heirs with Christ.

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

There is that same word “blessed with Abraham”... just as Deuteronomy 30:19 says “I have set before you life & death, the blessing & the curse. So choose life...”

Refers to the Mosaic Covenant, not the New One though, as one could agree to observe and obey the Law, but that by itself still saved no one!

 

[Yeshua1]

It doesn't say He had to wake them up to speak to them. Don't add to His word.

Unless the Holy Spirit opens up their hearts and minds to be able to receive the Gospel message, they will still be deaf dumb and blind!

 

[Gup20]

Refers to the Mosaic Covenant, not the New One though, as one could agree to observe and obey the Law, but that by itself still saved no one!

Except Paul quotes Deuteronomy 30 and says it is about the covenant of faith, not the covenant of The Mosaic Law:

Romans 10:5-11 (NASB) 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

We can see in Deu 30 itself evidence of this:

Deuteronomy 30:6 (NASB) "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

So the entire context of the chapter is the covenant of faith & salvation. God commands us 3 times in this chapter to choose between life & death (v1, v15, v19) and says it is not too difficult for us to make the choice, and that the choice is not made by God in heaven.

 

[Rockson]

Here you have it. Irrefutable and undeniable proof that Calvinism is wrong. Deuteronomy 30 crushes any possibility of Calvinism. This is undeniable proof that God has set the choice of life or death before man. He says it is "not too difficult" for us to make the choice (even in our depraved state, it's still not too difficult for us to choose). He says the choice is "not made in heaven" by God. He says 3 times in this passage that it is a choice God sets before us and commands us to choose. Additionally, we know that - because the context is circumcision of the heart - we know that this passage is talking about Salvation. Additionally, Paul explicitly states this passage refers to salvation:

Interesting post Gup. I do think you make a good point with Duet 30:11, that the commandment isn't too difficult or beyond their reach.

 

[HankD]

Unless the Holy Spirit opens up their hearts and minds to be able to receive the Gospel message, they will still be deaf dumb and blind!

Of course...
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 

[Van]

The point in Calvinism from which all other points flow is "total depravity"... the notion that man is too sinful and disconnected from God to choose "good" or to choose "life" and that a sinful man cannot motivate God's grace. Arminius' position is the opposite and says man can choose God and his will can motivate God. However, I believe that both positions make the same, fattally flawed assumption; both assume that faith leads directly to salvation. In reality, salvation is INDIRECT. Faith qualifies one as a descendant of Abraham and then, in a separate step, the descendants of Abraham are chosen to inherit Christ's righteousness. This is why the debate never ends... both are very wrong about the nature of salvation, having both make the same incorrect assumption.

Hi Gup20, I, too, have been using the fact God sets before us the choice of life or death, not the choice of death only to the supposedly not chosen individually before creation, and life only for those chosen. Not how scripture reads.

I have not read through your argument for "indirect" salvation from faith, but my view also includes a well supported step in scripture. It is God alone who either credits our faith as righteousness (Romans 4) or not. In Matthew 13 we see soils #2 & #3 not being credited and those shallow or shared faiths not resulting in salvation.

When John 3:16 says whoever believes in Him, it mean those whose faith God credits as righteousness, shall not perish but have eternal life. So our salvation is indeed through our faith, but it is God alone who credits it or not.

 

[Reformed]

It got your attention then? Interesting. I look forward to your response. I’ve been bringing up this argument from Deuteronomy 30 for years and none have been willing to address it. It’s simply too damning to Calvinism for most Calvinists to even acknowledge it exists.

I am going to address it, despite your haughty "I'm right in my own eyes" attitude. What I will not do is get into a protracted debate with you. I am going to make my refutation and then move on to more worthwhile discussions. Why? Because you are not looking for the truth. All you want is to bludgeon your opponent with some secret nugget that you think you have found in scripture. That is the reason why other Calvinists probably want nothing to do with you. Your arrogant dismissal of Calvinists as a group is evidence that you are not seeking an honest dialog. So, here is my response, after which I bid you adieu.

To start, I think you need an entry-level course in biblical hermeneutics. The object of Deuteronomy 30 is the covenant nation of Israel. While the covenant nation of Israel is populated by individuals, The LORD is addressing the nation as a whole. Go back to Deuteronomy 28. The chapter starts off with an address to the nation, "Now it shall be, if you diligently obey the Lord your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth." The Lord promised to set who high above all the nations of the earth? Individuals? No. The entire covenant nation of Israel. This is made more clear in vs. 9-10 which read, "The LORD will establish you as a holy people to Himself, as He swore to you, if you keep the commandments of the LORD your God and walk in His ways. So all the peoples of the earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will be afraid of you." Deuteronomy 30 ends with your supposed slam-dunk passage, "So, choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,". You focused on this part of the chapter thinking that it was the nail in the Calvinist coffin. Of course, you are so tone deaf to the entire meaning of the chapter that you did not even quote verse 20 which says, "by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.” That who may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers? Answer: covenant Israel. Deuteronomy 30 has absolutely nothing do with the individual, although there are very good applications in the chapter for all of us.

The rest of your post displays a woeful ignorance of what faith is, where it comes from, and its part in salvation. The Calvinist gladly affirms that Abraham was justified by faith. He was not saved by works. However, the Calvinist believes that saving faith is a gift of God. It is not something that all sinners possess. While the sinner must believe (exercise faith) in order to be saved, he cannot do so unless he first has the ability to believe. Calvinists believe scripture is clear and convincing on the fact that prior to coming to faith in Christ, the sinner's mind is set on the flesh (Romans 8:7). 1 Corinthians 2:14 states that, "the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him". Ephesians 2:1 describes the sinner as "dead in your trespasses and sin". The Greek word for "dead" is nekros and it is the word used to describe a dead body. The sinner is spiritually dead and unable to respond to God by faith, because he does not yet possess faith. Faith is part of the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9), which is preceded by regeneration. Regeneration is a unilateral work of the Holy Spirit which make the sinner capable of belief (faith). So, yes, faith is an essential part of the Ordo Salutis (Order of Salvation), but it is Spirit-given to those appointed unto eternal life (Acts 13:48).

I am going to end right here. I have more I can say, but I think you and I both know you stopped reading this halfway through the opening paragraph. I am sure of one thing, your "irrefutable and deniable proof" is refutable and deniable.

As I promised. Adieu.

 

[Gup20]

Hi Gup20, I, too, have been using the fact God sets before us the choice of life or death, not the choice of death only to the supposedly not chosen individually before creation, and life only for those chosen. Not how scripture reads.

I have not read through your argument for "indirect" salvation from faith, but my view also includes a well supported step in scripture. It is God alone who either credits our faith as righteousness (Romans 4) or not. In Matthew 13 we see soils #2 & #3 not being credited and those shallow or shared faiths not resulting in salvation.

When John 3:16 says whoever believes in Him, it mean those whose faith God credits as righteousness, shall not perish but have eternal life. So our salvation is indeed through our faith, but it is God alone who credits it or not.

I could believe that, yes. Faith is credited as righteousness until the full inheritance comes at the resurrection.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Romans 4:9-12 (NASB) 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

 

[Gup20]

I am going to address it, despite your haughty "I'm right in my own eyes" attitude. What I will not do is get into a protracted debate with you. I am going to make my refutation and then move on to more worthwhile discussions. Why? Because you are not looking for the truth. All you want is to bludgeon your opponent with some secret nugget that you think you have found in scripture. That is the reason why other Calvinists probably want nothing to do with you. Your arrogant dismissal of Calvinists as a group is evidence that you are not seeking an honest dialog. So, here is my response, after which I bid you adieu.

I apologize for my arrogance.

To start, I think you need an entry-level course in biblical hermeneutics. The object of Deuteronomy 30 is the covenant nation of Israel. While the covenant nation of Israel is populated by individuals, The LORD is addressing the nation as a whole. Go back to Deuteronomy 28. The chapter starts off with an address to the nation, "Now it shall be, if you diligently obey the Lord your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth." The Lord promised to set who high above all the nations of the earth? Individuals? No. The entire covenant nation of Israel. This is made more clear in vs. 9-10 which read, "The LORD will establish you as a holy people to Himself, as He swore to you, if you keep the commandments of the LORD your God and walk in His ways. So all the peoples of the earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will be afraid of you."

I agree God did elect the descendants of Abraham as a whole, and not individually. However, I also believe that we are saved by becoming adopted children of Abraham and thereby heirs according to God's promise to him. But let me explain why I believe you to be wrong. I don't really need a Biblical degree in hermeneutics when Paul himself explains the topic of Deuteronomy 30:

Deu 30:6
“Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
Deu 30:11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

Rom 10:5-11 NASB 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

Paul literally quotes these verses in Deuteronomy 30 and says unequivocally they are regarding the covenant of FAITH not the law of Moses.

Deuteronomy 30 ends with your supposed slam-dunk passage, "So, choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,". You focused on this part of the chapter thinking that it was the nail in the Calvinist coffin. Of course, you are so tone deaf to the entire meaning of the chapter that you did not even quote verse 20 which says, "by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.” That who may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers? Answer: covenant Israel. Deuteronomy 30 has absolutely nothing do with the individual, although there are very good applications in the chapter for all of us.

Anyone with faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ qualifies as covenant Israel. That's kind of my point.

Gal 3:6-9 NASB 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.​

The rest of your post displays a woeful ignorance of what faith is, where it comes from, and its part in salvation.

No, I just don't agree with Calvin.

The Calvinist gladly affirms that Abraham was justified by faith. He was not saved by works. However, the Calvinist believes that saving faith is a gift of God.

Again, I disagree with the Calvinist interpretation. That's the point. Faith is not the gift... life and righteousness are the gift. Faith is how to qualify to obtain the gift. Faith is how the gift changes hands. The gift comes THROUGH faith... the gift isn't faith. Romans 2:8-9 says saved BY grace THROUGH faith it (saving BY grace) is the gift of God.

It is not something that all sinners possess. While the sinner must believe (exercise faith) in order to be saved, he cannot do so unless he first has the ability to believe.

That is why Deuteronomy 30 destroys Calvinism... it says IT IS NOT TOO DIFFICULT for you to choose life, and the choice is not made by God in heaven.

Calvinists believe scripture is clear and convincing on the fact that prior to coming to faith in Christ, the sinner's mind is set on the flesh (Romans 8:7). 1 Corinthians 2:14 states that, "the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him". Ephesians 2:1 describes the sinner as "dead in your trespasses and sin". The Greek word for "dead" is nekros and it is the word used to describe a dead body. The sinner is spiritually dead and unable to respond to God by faith, because he does not yet possess faith. Faith is part of the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9), which is preceded by regeneration. Regeneration is a unilateral work of the Holy Spirit which make the sinner capable of belief (faith). So, yes, faith is an essential part of the Ordo Salutis (Order of Salvation), but it is Spirit-given to those appointed unto eternal life (Acts 13:48).

I am going to end right here. I have more I can say, but I think you and I both know you stopped reading this halfway through the opening paragraph. I am sure of one thing, your "irrefutable and deniable proof" is refutable and deniable.

As I promised. Adieu.

This is the most predictable Calvinist response to Deuteronomy 30 - ending the conversation and closing your ears to the truth. You still have yet to actually deal with Deuteronomy 30... all you did was attempt to dismiss it without dealing with it.

 

[InTheLight]

To start, I think you need an entry-level course in biblical hermeneutics. The object of Deuteronomy 30 is the covenant nation of Israel. While the covenant nation of Israel is populated by individuals, The LORD is addressing the nation as a whole. Go back to Deuteronomy 28. The chapter starts off with an address to the nation, "Now it shall be, if you diligently obey the Lord your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth." The Lord promised to set who high above all the nations of the earth? Individuals? No. The entire covenant nation of Israel.

Now do Ezekiel 36.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[Gup20]

For

1 Corinthians 2:14 states that, "the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him". Ephesians 2:1 describes the sinner as "dead in your trespasses and sin". The Greek word for "dead" is nekros and it is the word used to describe a dead body. The sinner is spiritually dead and unable to respond to God by faith, because he does not yet possess faith. Faith is part of the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9), which is preceded by regeneration. Regeneration is a unilateral work of the Holy Spirit which make the sinner capable of belief (faith). So, yes, faith is an essential part of the Ordo Salutis (Order of Salvation), but it is Spirit-given to those appointed unto eternal life (Acts 13:48).

This is yet another completely made up notion of Calvinists. Faith isn’t some metaphysical power. Faith is mere belief. Calvinists act like it’s impossible for an unsaved person to believe anything unless God gives them this mysterious metaphysical power called faith. This is why I say both Calvin & Arminius are wrong... both buy into this nonsense. If I said “the sky is blue” and an unsaved person believed me, that unsaved person has faith in my word. Faith is mere belief. It has no power. It doesn’t require regeneration... saved & unsaved alike can believe things. Scripture gives us the order:

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

So regeneration (indwelling of the Holy Spirit) comes AFTER believing, not before.

So what is faith? Faith is mere belief. Why does faith matter? Because Abraham was the first to have faith IN THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST. Those who have the same faith (in the gospel of Jesus Christ) as Abraham qualify for HUMAN ADOPTION into the family of Abraham. You don’t need any special metaphysical power or regeneration to choose human adoption.

Colossians 1:12-13 (NASB) 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Notice what qualifying for Abraham’s inheritance does; it qualifies you for spiritual regeneration.

I am going to end right here. I have more I can say, but I think you and I both know you stopped reading this halfway through the opening paragraph. I am sure of one thing, your "irrefutable and deniable proof" is refutable and deniable.

As I promised. Adieu.

Let’s see if you can... I’ve had many Calvinists put their fingers in their ears and threaten to leave at this point in the conversation (having been challenged to the core with Deuteronomy 30 and having nothing to rescue their now failed theological paradigm), but so many come back despite promising to leave & they trot out the same arguments (as if to convince themselves)... but they can’t. The damage is done now... now they KNOW their argument is wrong. Most Calvinists can’t handle it... they are too proud to change, so their only recourse now is to ignore it and hope it goes away. But it doesn’t go away... it’s in your head now. Whenever you make your argument you’ll think about Deuteronomy 30 and know what you’re saying is false. Sorry if that’s you, but truth is more important.

 

[kyredneck]

As Roger Olson (a prominent Southern Baptist Arminian) has said: "Calvinists and Arminians agree, against Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism, that the sinner’s will is so depraved and bound to sin that it cannot respond positively to the gospel call without supernatural grace."

Where they differ is whether that grace is irresistible or not.

Good info! Thanks.

 

[kyredneck]

Deuteronomy 30 crushes any possibility of Calvinism. This is undeniable proof that God has set the choice of life or death before man.

The choice was given not to the Egyptians, or to the Babylonians, or Hittites or Ammorites, Moabites, etc. but the choice was given to Israel, redeemed by a strong hand from the house of bondage.

Paul quotes Deuteronomy 30

Consider the audience here also:

Romans:
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God.....To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I Corinthians:
Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours:

2 Corinthians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints that are in the whole of Achaia:

Galatians:
Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead), and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Ephesians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians:
Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus that are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ that are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

1 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

2 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Saviour, and Christ Jesus our hope; unto Timothy, my true child in faith: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, according to the promise of the life which is in Christ Jesus, to Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus:
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God`s elect, and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,......to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Philemon:
Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon our beloved and fellow-worker, and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow-soldier, and to the church in thy house:

Hebrews:
.....Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling,.....

James:
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting. Count it all joy, my brethren, when ye fall into manifold temptations;

1 Peter:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Peter:
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ:

1 John:
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.

2 John:
The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not I only, but also all they that know the truth;

3 John:
The elder unto Gaius the beloved, whom I love in truth.

Jude:
Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

Revelations:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

 

[kyredneck]

I am going to address it, despite your haughty "I'm right in my own eyes" attitude.

I apologize for my arrogance.

I wouldn't fret too much about it, coming from a snooty Reformed type. Be bery bery careful or you might find yourself on his ever expanding ignore list.

 

[The Biblicist]

You talk about one confused person, this thread takes the cake! First, election is not corporate but personal and individual as Paul uses personal pronouns not corporate nouns. Second, Jesus defines "cometh unto me" as believing in him in John 6:35 and denies that UNBELIEVERS can come to him in faith "except" by divine intervention (Jn. 6:44) that he describes by the term "draw" which is not a person, but an act by the Father INSIDE of men as he cites Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 to demonstrate that point, thus that is why he goes on to say that no man has seen God at any time (Jn. 6:46) because it is not EXTERNAL teaching but INTERNAL teaching described in Jeremiah 31:33 so that "all" taught by God effectually come to faith "from the least of them unto the greatest of them."

Third, he jerks Romans 10:5-12 out of context and then picks and chooses what verses he wants to include and exclude. Last, there is no objectivity but this poster has one thing in view - win the debate, not truth.

 

[The Biblicist]

For


This is yet another completely made up notion of Calvinists. Faith isn’t some metaphysical power. Faith is mere belief. Calvinists act like it’s impossible for an unsaved person to believe anything unless God gives them this mysterious metaphysical power called faith. This is why I say both Calvin & Arminius are wrong... both buy into this nonsense. If I said “the sky is blue” and an unsaved person believed me, that unsaved person has faith in my word. Faith is mere belief. It has no power. It doesn’t require regeneration... saved & unsaved alike can believe things.

This is simply flat out false. If this were true then Jesus would not have to be the "author" of faith (Heb. 12:2) nor would faith be "of grace" (Rom. 4:16) or "given" to men (Philip. 1:29; Eph. 2:8) but would be inherent in human nature. If this were true Jesus would never say "NO MAN CAN come to me" but rather "all men can come to me." If this were true there would be no exception clause "except the Father draw him" or "except it be given unto him by the Father." Jesus is not talking about his own person but "draw" and "it" are actions taken by the Father INSIDE men as his reference to Isaiah 54;13and Jeremiah 31:33-34 demand as John 6:46 demands as that is a denial that the Father's teaching is visible but rather his invisible work within His covenant people or as Isaiah limits the "all" to "THY CHILDREN" and the context is referring to the New Covenant children just as the context in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is as well.

 

[Gup20]

You talk about one confused person, this thread takes the cake! First, election is not corporate but personal and individual as Paul uses personal pronouns not corporate nouns.

So you don’t believe that the Jews are corporately God’s chosen people? I suspect you do and your statement here is one of convenience rather than truth.

Just how does God choose whom His holy people are?

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy peopleto the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen youto be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenantand His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

What is this oath? It’s the covenant of faith a God makes with Abraham because of Abraham’s faith in the gospel.

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose AbramAnd brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You,And made a covenant with himTo give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginningwho they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reasonI have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

1Peter 1:2
[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath he made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenantsand the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Calvin didn’t realize that allChristians are saved by becoming qualified as part of the group of the “offspring of Abraham.” He mistakenly thought we all obtain righteousness the same way Abraham did – directly for his faith. However, this would mean that Christ (or some other sinless figures) would have to die once for each person who was saved – a life for a life. In the same way that we all inherited death from Adam, so too have we all inherited Christ’s righteousness. Christ directly exchanged (redeemed) His righteousness with Abraham, and then God promised Abraham that this righteousness would be an inheritance to all his descendants.

As Deuteronomy 30 says, you don't need to be regenerated to make the choice... it is a choice God commands us to make, not a choice God makes in heaven.

Second, Jesus defines "cometh unto me" as believing in him in John 6:35 and denies that UNBELIEVERS can come to him in faith "except" by divine intervention (Jn. 6:44) that he describes by the term "draw" which is not a person, but an act by the Father INSIDE of men as he cites Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 to demonstrate that point, thus that is why he goes on to say that no man has seen God at any time (Jn. 6:46) because it is not EXTERNAL teaching but INTERNAL teaching described in Jeremiah 31:33 so that "all" taught by God effectually come to faith "from the least of them unto the greatest of them."

Third, he jerks Romans 10:5-12 out of context and then picks and chooses what verses he wants to include and exclude. Last, there is no objectivity but this poster has one thing in view - win the debate, not truth.

Your magical, mystical notion of faith is unbiblical. The Bible uses “faith” and “believe” interchangeably. Furthermore Deuteronomy 30 absolutely states unequivocally (in regards to Salvation) that It is not too difficult for man to choose salvation and the choice for life or death, the blessing & the curse are not made by God in heaven, but is a choice God sets before man.... so we can say without any doubt your interpretation that faith is a magical gift that enables someone to believe a specific truth is entirely incorrect.

Further, God said man ate from the tree of the knowledge of GOOD & evil. This is required to make the choice He’s set before us (we are aware of the choices before us). You Calvinists act like depravity stripped us of any knowledge of good. Additionally Gods good law is written on the hearts even of unbelievers so man who has a knowledge of good and has Gods law on his conscience can’t be totally depraved.

Romans 2:14-15 (NASB) 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

 

[Gup20]

This is simply flat out false. If this were true then Jesus would not have to be the "author" of faith (Heb. 12:2) nor would faith be "of grace" (Rom. 4:16) or "given" to men (Philip. 1:29; Eph. 2:8) but would be inherent in human nature. If this were true Jesus would never say "NO MAN CAN come to me" but rather "all men can come to me." If this were true there would be no exception clause "except the Father draw him" or "except it be given unto him by the Father." Jesus is not talking about his own person but "draw" and "it" are actions taken by the Father INSIDE men as his reference to Isaiah 54;13and Jeremiah 31:33-34 demand as John 6:46 demands as that is a denial that the Father's teaching is visible but rather his invisible work within His covenant people or as Isaiah limits the "all" to "THY CHILDREN" and the context is referring to the New Covenant children just as the context in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is as well.

Romans 4:13-16 (NASB) 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

The “it” in Rom 4:16 is not faith, but it is “the righteousness” that comes through faith in verse 13.

Hebrews 12:2 calls Jesus the “author & perfector” of our faith. The word for author is archēgos which is translated “leader” or “prince” or the “primary example”... it does not denote source or origin.

Phill 1:29 you are ignoring the context. The whole chapter is Paul talking about how suffering for the sake of the gospel can be beneficial to the spread of the gospel... and trying to convince them to remain in faith in spite of suffering. Why would he bother convincing them to keep faith if their faith came from God and wasn’t their choice!!?

Philippians 1:29-30 (NASB) 29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me, and now hear to be in me.

It’s not saying that faith was granted, but that God granted them suffering for their faith which will be a great blessing and promote the spread of the gospel.

Eph. 2:8 is so egregiously mischaracterized by Calvinists. It’s obviously misused.

Ephesians 2:8 (NASB) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The “gift” is that you have been saved by grace (life & righteousness is salvation). Faith is how you receive the gift. Otherwise faith would be both the subject & predicate of the sentence & that’s just stupid.

Romans 3:24 (NASB)
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:23 (NASB)
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Faith is not the gift... righteousness & life are the gift of grace.