Calvin & Arminius were both wrong

[Gup20]

Acts 11:16-17 (NASB) 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Here we have not one but TWO scriptures which say unequivocally that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes AFTER one believes, not before. Calvinism is dead!

 

[The Biblicist]

Romans 4:13-16 (NASB) 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

The “it” in Rom 4:16 is not faith, but it is “the righteousness” that comes through faith in verse 13.

It does not matter if "it" refers to righteousness, the point he is making is that "it" comes "through faith" rather than by works of the law. The means is "of grace" and that means is "faith."

Hebrews 12:2 calls Jesus the “author & perfector” of our faith. The word for author is archēgos which is translated “leader” or “prince” or the “primary example”... it does not denote source or origin.

You obviously have no Greek background at all or you would not say "it doesnot source or origin" because it does. It is the same word used when he says he is "the beginning (arche) and the end" meaning he is the "source' of all things and the same word translated "Beginning" in John 1:1 speaking of the beginning of creation as used in Matthew 24:21 as well. So, you don't know what you are talking about, go learn some Greek or at least get some tools.

Phill 1:29 you are ignoring the context. The whole chapter is Paul talking about how suffering for the sake of the gospel can be beneficial to the spread of the gospel... and trying to convince them to remain in faith in spite of suffering. Why would he bother convincing them to keep faith if their faith came from God and wasn’t their choice!!?

Philippians 1:29-30 (NASB) 29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me, and now hear to be in me.

It’s not saying that faith was granted, but that God granted them suffering for their faith which will be a great blessing and promote the spread of the gospel.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about, in fact your explanation is perfect nonsense as it directly contradicts what he says. Suffering for the name of Christ is a God given privilege as is the ability to believe and that is precisely what he is saying. Your explanation denies what it obviously says.

Eph. 2:8 is so egregiously mischaracterized by Calvinists. It’s obviously misused.

Ephesians 2:8 (NASB) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The “gift” is that you have been saved by grace (life & righteousness is salvation). Faith is how you receive the gift. Otherwise faith would be both the subject & predicate of the sentence & that’s just stupid.

The only thing that is stupid is your explanation and interpretation. Where did you learn grammar? First, "it" is neuter and refers to the whole phrase "by grace are ye saved through faith". There is no neuter term found in the phrase "by grace are ye saved through faith" that is why it refers to the whole phrase because the grammar demands faith is inseparable from the act of being saved. "are ye saved" translates a paraphrastic construct which includes a perfect tense verb along with a present tense verb. The perfect tense verb demands completed action at some point in the past which continues as a completed action up to the present time. Hence, if this perfect state completed action occurred at some point in the past, it had to include "through faith" or else it was not yet a completed action. That is why the whole phrase is "it" and a gift of God because what is of grace is God's gift rather than something earned. In verse five he first introduces the phrase "by grace are ye saved" refering directly to the act of quickening. However, in verse 8 he adds the prepositional phrase "through faith" but reaffirms that salvation by grace through faith is gifted to us, and it is not of works.

Footenote: those who argue that "it" is neuter and therefore cannot refer to "through faith" because that is not neuter are expressing their ignorance because neither "saved by grace" are neuter either and but the grammar makes "through faith" inseparable from the completed perfect tense action of "saved."

Your remaining proof text support my interpretation that the whole phrase is inclusive of salvation which is a gift:

Romans 3:24 (NASB)
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:23 (NASB)
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Faith is not the gift... righteousness & life are the gift of grace.[/QUOTE]

 

[utilyan]

It does not matter if "it" refers to righteousness, the point he is making is that "it" comes "through faith" rather than by works of the law. The means is "of grace" and that means is "faith."



You obviously have no Greek background at all or you would not say "it doesnot source or origin" because it does. It is the same word used when he says he is "the beginning (arche) and the end" meaning he is the "source' of all things and the same word translated "Beginning" in John 1:1 speaking of the beginning of creation as used in Matthew 24:21 as well. So, you don't know what you are talking about, go learn some Greek or at least get some tools.




Again, you don't know what you are talking about, in fact your explanation is perfect nonsense as it directly contradicts what he says. Suffering for the name of Christ is a God given privilege as is the ability to believe and that is precisely what he is saying. Your explanation denies what it obviously says.



The only thing that is stupid is your explanation and interpretation. Where did you learn grammar? First, "it" is neuter and refers to the whole phrase "by grace are ye saved through faith". There is no neuter term found in the phrase "by grace are ye saved through faith" that is why it refers to the whole phrase because the grammar demands faith is inseparable from the act of being saved. "are ye saved" translates a paraphrastic construct which includes a perfect tense verb along with a present tense verb. The perfect tense verb demands completed action at some point in the past which continues as a completed action up to the present time. Hence, if this perfect state completed action occurred at some point in the past, it had to include "through faith" or else it was not yet a completed action. That is why the whole phrase is "it" and a gift of God because what is of grace is God's gift rather than something earned. In verse five he first introduces the phrase "by grace are ye saved" refering directly to the act of quickening. However, in verse 8 he adds the prepositional phrase "through faith" but reaffirms that salvation by grace through faith is gifted to us, and it is not of works.

Footenote: those who argue that "it" is neuter and therefore cannot refer to "through faith" because that is not neuter are expressing their ignorance because neither "saved by grace" are neuter either and but the grammar makes "through faith" inseparable from the completed perfect tense action of "saved."

Your remaining proof text support my interpretation that the whole phrase is inclusive of salvation which is a gift:

Romans 3:24 (NASB)
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:23 (NASB)
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Faith is not the gift... righteousness & life are the gift of grace.

[/QUOTE]



Faith is a gift. 1 Corinthians 12 - 1 Corinthians 13

Wait......You thought faith, righteousness, life and salvation are different things?

If you get one complete you got them all complete.

Sneezing is a gift from God, And if you don't believe me the next time it happens folks all around you will bless you and even you will say thank you.


Every Sin breaks a commandment.

Not having faith in God is a Sin.

If you don't have faith there is a clear mistrusting fear of God.

The Love of God is broken. Its that underlying root of faith can't be broken

Love of God is a commandment.

Love of GOD , Love neighbor is the ONLY GOOD WORK.


So if you can cough up a Faith that doesn't trust God. Your in the clear.

Love is down there by the roots, because GOD IS LOVE.

 

[The Biblicist]

So you don’t believe that the Jews are corporately God’s chosen people? I suspect you do and your statement here is one of convenience rather than truth.

That is not the issue! I don't believe the new covenant is restricted to one race as Paul quotes Jeremiah 31:32-34 and applies it to the New Covenant that is inclusive of both Jews and Gentiles. The "seed" of Abraham include "seed" from "many nations" in addition to ethnic Israel.

Just how does God choose whom His holy people are?

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy peopleto the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen youto be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenantand His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Here is the fundamental error committed by all Arminians. You fail to comprehend that NATURAL ISRAEL and God's "old" covenant and choice of them is a TYPE of the children of the "everlasting covenant."

For example, the covenant promise made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a type of the Triune God and the everlasting covenant. Abraham is a type of God the "father." Isaac is a type of the only begotten Son through supernatural birth offered up on Mount Moriah. Jacob is a type of the Holy Spirit or the progenitor/birther of the children of God. Thus, we have Jesus using the phrase that God is the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Why just these three? He is the God of Joseph, Daniel, etc.,etc. He stops with this three because they are types of the one triune God and his everlasting covenant.

The "old covenant' is a type of the "new covenant." Eight days after physical birth one must be circumcised. Eight is the number for new birth. This rite at physical birth is a type of new birth in order to become part of children of God (born again) and brought into the kingdom of God.

The covenant with Abraham preceded both the "old" and "new" covenants as it was a type of the "everlasting covenant" of redemption or the eternal covenant between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit before the world began.

So, don't confuse the type with the antitype and that is exactly what you are doing in your thinking and interpreting.

John 6:64

But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginningwho they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reasonI have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

There is simply no excuse for your interpretation of this text inferred by what you underline. First, the words "For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that did not believe..." are not he words of Christ but the words of John commenting on Christ's words which are "But there are some of you who do not believe." So, Christ's words "For this reason" refers back to his previous words, not John's parenthetical explanation of the words of Christ. Christ is saying "some of you don't believe...For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to me except it be given him..." What be given? "IT" be given. If you go back and read what he said in verse 44 it is obvious was must be given because the obstacle is "no man can come" no man has the ability to come and therefore the ability to come must be given. The Father never gave this ability to come to Christ in faith and that is his explanation for why "some of you believe not."

1Peter 1:2

[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Here is another text that you have no clue about. The text does not say they were chosen by God "according to preseen faith." You simply read into it "faith" when it says no such thing. Secondarily, Romans 8:28-30 places these things in their proper logical order and God's eternal purpose is listed first in verse 28 as the blue print He works ALL THINGS according to. Just like a house builder possesses a blue print before the house is built and he can tell you exactly where every door, every room, every wall is going to be, not because he looks into the future and foresees it, but because he looks at his blue print which he works all things according to, and so foreknowledge is based upon God's purpose of what he has predestinated to do not what he foresees creatures will do.

God promised Abraham a seed not because he looked ahead and saw what you and I would do but election is "OF GRACE" not based on anything we do:

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth - Rom. 9:11

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded - Rom. 11:5-7

All your objections to what these texts clearly state and infer are answered by Paul in Romans 9:14-20. Such as, this makes God unjust, and if this is so, how can God blame us for sin, etc., ect.



Just as repentance and faith are inseparable from each other in a cause and effect relationship so is the new birth and conversion (repentance and faith) found in an inseparable cause and effect relationship with each other. The periphrastic construct in Ephesians 2:8 proves this beyond any possible refutation. Paul uses the perfect tense for the word "saved" demanding it is a completed action at a point in the past which continues as a completed action up to the present time of speaking. Do you believe you can be "saved" as a completed action WITHOUT faith??? No! So, what Paul is saying that this completed action of being "saved" occurred "through faith" which demands "through faith" was inseparable from that completed action. Moreover, the word "saved" in context has previously been defined as the act of quickening/regeneration in verse 5 three verses prior to verse 8. So, it is impossible to believe apart from regeneration as are inseparably combined in a cause and effect relationship as a completed action of being "saved."

Moreover, Paul places quickening (saved) as the cause and "through faith" as the effect simply because an unregnerate heart exists in a state of darkness, death, enmity toward God and depravity or in love with sin (Eph. 4:24). So, in Romans 8:8-10 it is the regenerated heart which believeth not the unregenerate heart. That regenerated heart is produced by the "rhema" or the command of God (Rom. 10:17) thus producing a believing heart because as Jesus repeatedly said no evil tree can bring forth good fruit and he was speaking of the human heart (Mt.12:32-35).

 

[The Biblicist]

So you don’t believe that the Jews are corporately God’s chosen people? I suspect you do and your statement here is one of convenience rather than truth.

He mistakenly thought we all obtain righteousness the same way Abraham did – directly for his faith.

This is not Calvin's or Abraham's doctrine but the doctrine spelled out by Paul in Romans 3:24-5:3 and Galatians 3:5-6. Paul argues that JUST LIKE Abraham believed so do we as he is the "father of all who believe" in the sense that he is the first spelled out pattern found in scripture for how all the elect are justified before God by faith without works.

You do realize don't you, that Paul preached the very same gospel that has been preached by "all the prophets" (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2) with the only difference the pre-cross gospel was progressive in revelation and anticipated the coming of Christ whereas the post-cross gospel is fulfilled revelation and looks back at the cross - but the very same gospel. There is no different Savior prior to the cross than after the cross. There is no different way of salvation prior to the cross than after the cross. You do realize that don't you?

However, this would mean that Christ (or some other sinless figures) would have to die once for each person who was saved – a life for a life.

No, it does not! You are confusing representative persons with personal application. Justification (Imputation/remission) is not on a group action but a personal individualized action just as Paul clearly spells out in Romans 4.

As Deuteronomy 30 says, you don't need to be regenerated to make the choice... it is a choice God commands us to make, not a choice God makes in heaven.

Deutromony 30 like Romans 10 addresses only human accountability while Romans 9 and 11 addresses their inability. According to your theory Jesus taught false doctrine when he said, "NO MAN CAN come to me" as your doctrine demands he should have said "ALL MEN CAN come to me." Your teaching is completely and utterly false.

Further, God said man ate from the tree of the knowledge of GOOD & evil. This is required to make the choice He’s set before us (we are aware of the choices before us).

No onen disputes unfallen man had free choice in the garden. That is not the issue at all. The issue is what effect had the fall on post-fallen mankind. If a true born again child of God does not have the will power to overcome the law of indwelling Sin (Rom. 7:18) and God needs to work in him "both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Philip. 2:13) by the indwelling Spirit of God in order to overcome the power of indwelling sin, do you really thing unregenerate men have that kind of will power????? That is precisely why Jesus speaking of unregenerate man said "NO MAN CAN come to me" EXCEPT by divine intervention which is an ACTION (not a person) by the Father INSIDE of man (Isa. 64:13; Jer. 31:33-34; Ezek. 36:26-27; Jn. 3:3-6; 2 Cor. 3:3; 4:6; 1Thes. 1:3-4; etc.).

 

[The Biblicist]

Acts 11:16-17 (NASB) 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Here we have not one but TWO scriptures which say unequivocally that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes AFTER one believes, not before. Calvinism is dead!

You simply don't know the difference between the baptism in the spirit and indwelling of the spirit

 

[Yeshua1]

Except Paul quotes Deuteronomy 30 and says it is about the covenant of faith, not the covenant of The Mosaic Law:

Romans 10:5-11 (NASB) 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

We can see in Deu 30 itself evidence of this:

Deuteronomy 30:6 (NASB) "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

So the entire context of the chapter is the covenant of faith & salvation. God commands us 3 times in this chapter to choose between life & death (v1, v15, v19) and says it is not too difficult for us to make the choice, and that the choice is not made by God in heaven.

That refers to the coming new Covenant itself, established by the promised messiah, and refers to the elect in Christ who indeed shall turn to God!

 

[Yeshua1]

So you don’t believe that the Jews are corporately God’s chosen people? I suspect you do and your statement here is one of convenience rather than truth.

Just how does God choose whom His holy people are?

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy peopleto the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen youto be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenantand His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

What is this oath? It’s the covenant of faith a God makes with Abraham because of Abraham’s faith in the gospel.

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose AbramAnd brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You,And made a covenant with himTo give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginningwho they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reasonI have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

1Peter 1:2
[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath he made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenantsand the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Calvin didn’t realize that allChristians are saved by becoming qualified as part of the group of the “offspring of Abraham.” He mistakenly thought we all obtain righteousness the same way Abraham did – directly for his faith. However, this would mean that Christ (or some other sinless figures) would have to die once for each person who was saved – a life for a life. In the same way that we all inherited death from Adam, so too have we all inherited Christ’s righteousness. Christ directly exchanged (redeemed) His righteousness with Abraham, and then God promised Abraham that this righteousness would be an inheritance to all his descendants.

As Deuteronomy 30 says, you don't need to be regenerated to make the choice... it is a choice God commands us to make, not a choice God makes in heaven.


Your magical, mystical notion of faith is unbiblical. The Bible uses “faith” and “believe” interchangeably. Furthermore Deuteronomy 30 absolutely states unequivocally (in regards to Salvation) that It is not too difficult for man to choose salvation and the choice for life or death, the blessing & the curse are not made by God in heaven, but is a choice God sets before man.... so we can say without any doubt your interpretation that faith is a magical gift that enables someone to believe a specific truth is entirely incorrect.

Further, God said man ate from the tree of the knowledge of GOOD & evil. This is required to make the choice He’s set before us (we are aware of the choices before us). You Calvinists act like depravity stripped us of any knowledge of good. Additionally Gods good law is written on the hearts even of unbelievers so man who has a knowledge of good and has Gods law on his conscience can’t be totally depraved.

Romans 2:14-15 (NASB) 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Under the new Covenant, there is but individual election unto salvation in Christ, so the Lord indeed has reserved unto Himself a faithful remnant of Jews in each generation, but they are saved by coming to Jesus, not due to birthright!

 

[Yeshua1]

Interesting post Gup. I do think you make a good point with Duet 30:11, that the commandment isn't too difficult or beyond their reach.

Entire context though was God telling the Jews to believe and do his law, as the means to be blessed by Him and not cursed by Him, so not exactly describing coming to God in a saving sense!

 

[Gup20]

That is not the issue! I don't believe the new covenant is restricted to one race as Paul quotes Jeremiah 31:32-34 and applies it to the New Covenant that is inclusive of both Jews and Gentiles. The "seed" of Abraham include "seed" from "many nations" in addition to ethnic Israel.

The bottom line is God promised Abraham in Genesis 17 that his “seed” or “descendants” would inherit the covenant of faith from Abraham. Therefore, the “seed” or “descendants” of Abraham are a chosen or elect or privileged group.

I agree faith individually qualifies persons, but not for righteousness... but rather for adoption into the elect group known as Abraham’s “seed” or “descendants.” What qualifies a person for righteousness or life or justification is being a member of the seed or descendants of Abraham. So then, the Calvinist & Arminianist notion that faith qualifies a person for righteousness & life is incorrect.

Here is the fundamental error committed by all Arminians.

Arminius was just as wrong about how salvation works as Calvin. In fact, he made the exact same incorrect assumption... that faith qualifies a person for righteousness. It does not.... at least not directly. Faith is how we become part of “the elect” and the elect inherit Christ’s righteousness through kinship with Abraham. Therefore, faith isn’t metaphysical or magical... but is a human institution which merely qualifies a person for human adoption... no regeneration necessary for human adoption... no regeneration necessary for faith. This is why scripture says the indwelling of the Spirit comes AFTER faith... no spiritual power needed to believe a news report.

You fail to comprehend that NATURAL ISRAEL and God's "old" covenant and choice of them is a TYPE of the children of the "everlasting covenant."

For example, the covenant promise made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a type of the Triune God and the everlasting covenant. Abraham is a type of God the "father." Isaac is a type of the only begotten Son through supernatural birth offered up on Mount Moriah. Jacob is a type of the Holy Spirit or the progenitor/birther of the children of God. Thus, we have Jesus using the phrase that God is the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Why just these three? He is the God of Joseph, Daniel, etc.,etc. He stops with this three because they are types of the one triune God and his everlasting covenant.

Paul says the covenant of faith came 430 years before the Law of Moses.

Galatians 3:7-9 (NASB) 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Galatians 3:13-14 (NASB) 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"-- 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:16-18 (NASB) 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

The "old covenant' is a type of the "new covenant." Eight days after physical birth one must be circumcised. Eight is the number for new birth. This rite at physical birth is a type of new birth in order to become part of children of God (born again) and brought into the kingdom of God.

The covenant with Abraham preceded both the "old" and "new" covenants as it was a type of the "everlasting covenant" of redemption or the eternal covenant between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit before the world began.

So, don't confuse the type with the antitype and that is exactly what you are doing in your thinking and interpreting.

In both Galatians & Romans Paul says that the covenant with Abraham is the New Covenant... the covenant of faith. It says in both that the way we qualify for this new covenant of faith is to be qualified as a descendant of Abraham.

Romans 4:9-16 (NASB) 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

 

[Gup20]

Entire context though was God telling the Jews to believe and do his law, as the means to be blessed by Him and not cursed by Him, so not exactly describing coming to God in a saving sense!

Deuteronomy 30:6 (NASB) "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Not only does the chapter talk about circumcision of the heart, but Paul himself quotes Deu 30 and says unequivocally it is about salvation through faith:

Romans 10:5-10 (NASB) 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

So it is undeniable that the choice God says 3 times in Deuteronomy 30 that he sets before man (between life & death) is in regards to the righteousness based on faith, not based on the Law. Furthermore when God says in Deuteronomy 30:11 that it is not too difficult for man to make the choice, and that the choice is not made by God in heaven, we know it’s talking the salvation based on the righteousness of faith.

 

[Gup20]

The only thing that is stupid is your explanation and interpretation. Where did you learn grammar? First, "it" is neuter and refers to the whole phrase "by grace are ye saved through faith". There is no neuter term found in the phrase "by grace are ye saved through faith" that is why it refers to the whole phrase because the grammar demands faith is inseparable from the act of being saved. "are ye saved" translates a paraphrastic construct which includes a perfect tense verb along with a present tense verb. The perfect tense verb demands completed action at some point in the past which continues as a completed action up to the present time. Hence, if this perfect state completed action occurred at some point in the past, it had to include "through faith" or else it was not yet a completed action. That is why the whole phrase is "it" and a gift of God because what is of grace is God's gift rather than something earned. In verse five he first introduces the phrase "by grace are ye saved" refering directly to the act of quickening. However, in verse 8 he adds the prepositional phrase "through faith" but reaffirms that salvation by grace through faith is gifted to us, and it is not of works.

Footenote: those who argue that "it" is neuter and therefore cannot refer to "through faith" because that is not neuter are expressing their ignorance because neither "saved by grace" are neuter either and but the grammar makes "through faith" inseparable from the completed perfect tense action of "saved."

Your remaining proof text support my interpretation that the whole phrase is inclusive of salvation which is a gift:

Romans 3:24 (NASB)
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:23 (NASB)
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Faith is not the gift... righteousness & life are the gift of grace.

[/QUOTE]That is just nonsense.

“We are saved” is the independent clause whereas “by grace” and “through faith” are dependent clauses that relate to the independent clause “we are saved.” Therefore “it is the gift of God” relates to the independent clause “we are saved”, not to the dependent clauses. Even if you attach the dependent clauses, the word “it” would still relate to the independent part of the phrase, not the dependent part.

Your interpretation simply has no validity.

 

[kyredneck]

the choice God says 3 times in Deuteronomy 30 that he sets before man (between life & death)

Calvin & Arminius were both wrong

Lol, is this your 'home page'? https://www.gup20.com/

 

[Gup20]

Calvin & Arminius were both wrong

Lol, is this your 'home page'? https://www.gup20.com/

Pfft! Ha! I let that domain go a few years ago.

 

[kyredneck]

Pfft! Ha! I let that domain go a few years ago.

I got it from your profile.

What denomination is Crossroads Alliance Church? You still go there?

 

[Gup20]

I got it from your profile.

What denomination is Crossroads Alliance Church? You still go there?

Yes, I still go there. It’s Christian & Missionary Alliance. This isn’t their doctrine per se, though my pastor didn’t have a problem with it.

About 15 years ago God told me that Abraham was made righteous for believing the gospel of Jesus Christ (Genesis 15:5-6, Gal 3:6-9, 3:16, Rom 4:9-14).The rest of this theory flowed from that knowledge.

 

[The Biblicist]

That is just nonsense.

“We are saved” is the independent clause whereas “by grace” and “through faith” are dependent clauses that relate to the independent clause “we are saved.” Therefore “it is the gift of God” relates to the independent clause “we are saved”, not to the dependent clauses. Even if you attach the dependent clauses, the word “it” would still relate to the independent part of the phrase, not the dependent part.[/QUOTE]

You are not thinking. Let me say it this way and see if you understand. Let's say I said, "For by wrath You killed a man by using a gun". We have an independent clause "For by anger you killed a man" and then a prepositional phrase that modifies that clause. Now, put on your thinking hat. Could you have killed that man without that gun at the same moment in time the action of killing took place?? No! They are inseparable actions.

Now, "For by grace are ye saved" is a periphrastic construct in the Greek, meaning Paul uses a perfect tense verb with a present tense state of being verb. What does that mean? It means that this action of being saved is an action completed at some point in the past and continues to the present time of speaking as a completed action. Joined with the present tense state of being verb it re-inforces its continuance from the point of speaking. Got it? Now, the prepositional phrase that follows modifies that completed action. What does that mean? It means that completed action at some time in the past is inseparable from "faith" as that action was completed "through" faith. So they are inseparable actions. Just like "by a gun" is inseparable from the action of the verb "killed" as killing could not have occurred without that gun. Got it? So, what does that mean? It means the clause "it is a gift of God not of yourselves" refers to the completed acting of being saved through faith.

But, lets go further. Do you believe you can be saved without faith being inseparably connected with the action of being saved? Do you?

I dare any Greek Grammarian on this forum to overthrow this.

 

[InTheLight]

That is just nonsense.

You are not thinking.

Let me say it this way and see if you understand.

Now, "For by grace are ye saved" is a periphrastic construct in the Greek, meaning Paul uses a perfect tense verb with a present tense state... <snip>

What does that mean? It means that this action of...<snip>

Got it? Now, the prepositional phrase that follows modifies...<snip>

What does that mean? It means that...<snip>

Got it?

So, what does that mean?

Do you believe you can be saved without faith being inseparably connected with the action of being saved?

Do you?

I dare any Greek Grammarian on this forum to overthrow this.

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[The Biblicist]

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View attachment 2701

Ridicule is the admission of ignorance and the weapon of the ignorant.

 

[InTheLight]

Ridicule is the admission of ignorance and the weapon of the ignorant.

Like this?:

That is just nonsense.

You are not thinking.

Let me say it this way and see if you understand.