Calvin on "total depravity"

[MennoSota]

Then you intentionally misrepresented the context. In most circles that called a lie.

Did Christ reverse our condemnation "in Adam" or not? Romans 5:18 states yes....There are other texts too....

I do not misrepresent God's work in choosing to save sinners. The scripture is clear.

Romans 5:14 & 5:19

 

[AndThisGospel]

"Yes, but I have this sinful nature you see, and......" 'Those who practise such things will not inherit the kingdom of God'
"Yes, but AndthisGospel told me........" 'Those who practise such things will not inherit the kingdom of God' Yes, but......."'Those who practise such things will not inherit the kingdom of God' 'Those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires' (Galatians 5:24).

You've completely got this one backwards...A practiced sin is not one that you repeat, as in a besetting sin. What then is a "practiced sin"?

1. A practiced sin is a known sin that you have decided isn't sin. E.G. the homosexual lifestyle. They practice it daily, as a lifestyle, because they have decided that they were made that way by God. Therefore homosexuality can't be sin.
2. A practiced sin is one that you refuse to repent of.

All Christians have sinned (past tense) are are falling short of God's agape love (present, continuous tense). See Rom 3:23/Ex 33:18,19 Hence none are measuring up to God's law. Don't believe me? I'll prove it...

Yes, the Christian stills sins at times

How? If you do not have indwelling sin you can't be tempted....Temptation comes from within....

 

[utilyan]

Your narrative is so far from reality as to not warrant a rebuttal. Shake my head.

Continue to blame God if you must.

Your in the corner now is why there is no rebuttal.

I love God. I Believe in his complete sovereign control to absolutely everything.


What I don't believe Is that God is Evil at ALL. TRULY GOOD, And I can easily defend God as the best thing. God is love.


I pity you because your under a TERRORIST god. Lack the courage to stand up to Hitler.

Your interpretation of God is a greater insult. I would have to believe God is Hitler and an idiot.

Your interpretation of God is so evil I challenge you to show me something WORST!

This challenge is a piece of cake.



You hate your own idea of God, this is why you fail.

 

[MennoSota]

Your in the corner now is why there is no rebuttal.

I love God. I Believe in his complete sovereign control to absolutely everything.


What I don't believe Is that God is Evil at ALL. TRULY GOOD, And I can easily defend God as the best thing. God is love.


I pity you because your under a TERRORIST god. Lack the courage to stand up to Hitler.

Your interpretation of God is a greater insult. I would have to believe God is Hitler and an idiot.

Your interpretation of God is so evil I challenge you to show me something WORST!

This challenge is a piece of cake.



You hate your own idea of God, this is why you fail.

You cannot conceive of yourself and all humanity as sinners who justly deserve hell due to breaking God's law.

Thus, you think God is evil and a terrorist if He does not wrap His arms around all humanity and welcome them into His Kingdom as is. You cannot conceive that humanity is to God what ISIS is to the free world. The terrorist is not God (you have it so twisted), the terrorist is humanity.
Should the US welcome all of ISIS into its borders and love them as ISIS brings its ideology of hate and oppression, weapons and wickedness along with? Is it unloving of the US to deny them entrance into the US? Is the US the terrorist while ISIS is the loving and good persons that the US should let in?
That...is the God you are claiming as your own. You want a God who will welcome your terrorism into His kingdom because you choose to want in. You don't want a God who controls His own borders and chooses whom He wills, based upon His own Sovereign determination. You call God a terrorist for being Sovereign King.

I cannot understate how perverted your argument is and how demeaning it is to God. You should be filled with shame and repentance.

 

[Yeshua1]

So these are extra conditions other than faith in Christ? Please....That's Christ + works = salvation, which is the same problem the Galatian church had.

You misunderstand Peter here! He is stating that when one is saved, those qualities must follow in our lives, so not Jesus and works save us, but that when esus really saves us, those works are made evidence!

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm sorry to have taken so long to come back on this post, but this reply will take a little more time than I've had until now.
I think you'll find it does.

The Greek word sarx has the natural meaning of 'flesh' (ie. bodily flesh). It is true that is often refers to sinful human nature, especially in Paul, and especially when contrasted with pneuma, 'Spirit.' But that is not by any means its invariable meaning (eg. Romans 2:28; 9:3; 1 Corinthians 3:3; 15:39; Galatians 6:13; Philippians 1:21-24; 1 John 4:2; Jude 8. Not at all an exhaustive list).

Now let us consider Romans 8:5-9.

'For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [Gk. sarx] is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal [Gk. sarx] mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.' Clearly here, 'flesh' means sinful human nature. To be 'flesh' is death; it is enmity against God; those who are 'in the flesh' cannot please God. And if the Holy Spirit indwells someone, which is surely the definition of a Christian, that person is not 'in the flesh' in that sense.

Your problem is that you have too high a view of human nature and too low a view of the power of God in salvation, which is the same power that raised the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead.. The Christian is not 'in the flesh' in the sense of being under his old sinful nature. He is, as we have seen in 2 Corinthians 5:17, a new creature, a new creation. The old sinful nature is gone. He does not have an improved heart, but a new one (Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:6). He has had a new birth, being born of the Spirit, and as we see in Romans 8, the Holy Spirit does not share premises with sinful human nature.

So let's look again at Romans 7:18-25, for Paul will not contradict himself. We will briefly note that the Greek word translated 'carnal' in Romans 7:14 is sarkikos, not sarx:

For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practise. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law [not in me but] in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is [not in me but] in my members. O writched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord!''

There are those who take the view that Paul is talking about himself before he was saved, but I do not agree with that. Paul is talking about the life of a Christian, one who, as he has just said in Chapter 8, is no longer 'in the flesh' in the sense of fallen human nature. Therefore, when he says that nothing good dwells 'in his flesh,' he cannot mean his fallen human nature because as a Christian he doesn't have one. He is talking about his physical body. The real Paul- his 'inner man' (cf. Ephesians 3:16)- delights in the righteous (moral) law of God and desires above all things to keep it. But there is something in his 'members' (Gk. melos; 'limb,' 'part of body.' cf. James 3:5) which is dragging him down into sin.

We see the same thing in Galatians 5:16-17 and in Colossians 3:5. 'Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness.......etc.' This sinful something, which is not in us but in our mortal bodies has to be stamped out.

So the Christian has died to sin (Romans 6:2; Colossians 3:3). If Paul sins, he can say, 'If I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it.' So who is doing it, Paul? 'But sin that dwells in me' [ie. not in the inner me, but in my members, my mortal body]. So to the Christian, sin is an alien thing; something he hates, but still exercises a malign influence upon him. Now let me ask the Christians on this forum: is that not something we feel? That we delight in God's righteous laws and long to keep them, but there is this thing that is dragging us down into sin? It is not our sinful nature, because in our nature (the 'inner man') we delight in God's laws, but it is a relic of that old nature and praise God, when we finally shed this old body, we shall rise to meet the Lord in a new resurrection body and be finished with sin forever.

There is tha sin principle still a work in our flesh, as we will still have struggles until Glorification day!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You've completely got this one backwards...A practiced sin is not one that you repeat, as in a besetting sin. What then is a "practiced sin"?

1. A practiced sin is a known sin that you have decided isn't sin. E.G. the homosexual lifestyle. They practice it daily, as a lifestyle, because they have decided that they were made that way by God. Therefore homosexuality can't be sin.
2. A practiced sin is one that you refuse to repent of.

Not so. All 'practise' means in galatians 5:21 is 'do' or 'commit.' The word is prassontes which is the Present participle of the verb prasso which means to do, commit, carry on, be busy with or, indeed, practise. The point is that it is in the Present Tense, which in the Greek denotes continuity. Those who go on committing any sin without being led to repentance show themselves not to be Christians and therefore will not enter the kingdom of God.

All Christians have sinned (past tense) are are falling short of God's agape love (present, continuous tense). See Rom 3:23/Ex 33:18,19 Hence none are measuring up to God's law. Don't believe me? I'll prove it.

Romans 3:23. 'All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.' The text is not speaking of Christians, but of all people. But you are right that none of us measures up to the standard of God's law. I have never suggested differently. That's why He gave us a Saviour.
[QUOTE[
How? If you do not have indwelling sin you can't be tempted....Temptation comes from within....[/QUOTE]
To those who are not saved, certainly. But for the Christian it is different. 'For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law [not in my 'inner man' but] in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is [not in me but] in my members' (Romans 7:22-23).

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree, but nonetheless the sin nature is there.

Look at Gal 5:17 "For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you may not do what you want."

Clearly the battle, in the Christian walk, is not between the converted will (i.e., "the law of my mind) and the sin nature, but between "the Spirit" and "the flesh". When you walk in the Spirit, it will defeat "the desires of the flesh", but if you try using your will power (i.e., the converted will) the flesh will win. So the struggle is to give up and allow the Spirit to defeat temptation.

Were does temptation come from?

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts... 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

Paul calls this "indwelling sin" or "the law of sin".



No sir....1 John 1:8

"If we say that we have no sin (singular - i.e., indwelling sin), we deceive ourselves, and the truth (Jesus, through the Spirit) is not in us." "9 If we confess our sins (plural), He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...."

This new creation isn't in you - it refers to our glorified humanity in Christ Jesus. That humanity is free from indwelling sin. Besides, if you were free from sin you wouldn't be sinning. See Rom 6:6

"...Our self was done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin."

Where did "our self" (some versions say "our old self" or "our old man") die? Answer: "In Christ" about 2000 years ago. Our fallen Adamic life died in Christ Jesus on the cross. Hence Christ, upon the resurrection, took to heaven a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin. That life in Him is free for indwelling sin and therefore it can't tempt Him any longer.

If this applies to you, the believer, then you no longer have indwelling sin (i.e, the sin nature) and therefore you are blameless, holy and righteous. Do you really want to go there? I can prove you are still a sinner falling short of God's righteousness.

Jesus died for individual sins an sinners, not for all falln huma, as he died in theplce of th elct in Him....

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you still not understand? Did you take the trouble to read my post all the way through? I am both these things; 'Justus et peccator.' But you have not even considered Romans 8:5-9. Here it is again:

'For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [Gk. sarx] is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind [Gk. sarx] is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.' Clearly here, 'flesh' means sinful human nature. To be 'flesh' is death; it is enmity against God; those who are 'in the flesh' cannot please God. And if the Holy Spirit indwells someone, which is surely the definition of a Christian, that person is not 'in the flesh' in that sense.

Please comment on this text. Galatians 5:17 does not contradict it.

Paul is contrasting who we once were andwho we now are in Christ, not describing both as saved!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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